Tzitzis Dragging on the Floor

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  • #610120

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    i want to bring up something which i find so many people are nichshal in but seem to think its not a problem. i’m talking about tzizis dragging or falling on the floor it’s mamash a dvar mitzvah how can it be on the floor for longing than a minute if you drop a siddur dont you give it a kiss why should tzizis be any different?

    #969485

    Sam2
    Participant

    A siddur is Tashmishei Kedushah. Tzitzis is Tashmishei Mitzvah. It’s M’vuar from B’rachos 18a (give or take) that there is no Issur of having your Tzitzis drag on the ground.

    #969486

    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    Unless you are very wealthy and live in the time of bayis sheni.

    #969487

    The little I know
    Participant

    Check Shulchan Aruch – Orach Chaim end of Siman 21 (se’if daled) where is specifically states that one should take that his tzitzis do not drag on the floor. The Mishna Berura se’if koton 18 explains this as bizuy mitzvah, and also notes that it risks them tearing and becoming posul. He recommends that one pick up their tzitzis and tuck them into a gartel. (Seems that the Chofetz Chaim either wore a gartel or even recommended it.)

    #969488

    Sam2
    Participant

    TLIK: I don’t know the precise Lashon of that M”B, but a Gartel just means a belt.

    I know there are Poskim who advise against. However Bimchilas K’vodam (and I do say this with as much trepidation as is possible but still say it), it cannot actually be Assur. It is M’vuar from the Gemara that it is untenable to say there is something wrong with it. I have brought this Ta’ana to Poskim and Roshei Yeshivah and every single one has said that claim here is not wrong. The only possible answer someone gave was that in the time of Chazal it wasn’t a Bizui for clothes to touch the ground but in 16th-19th century Europe it was (and the Dochak in that answer is obvious).

    #969490

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    thank you tlik for finding that MB sam2 even if it is only Tashmeshei mitzvah so what they still shouldn’t be on the floor it’s a bizayon! Do you drag your Teffilin on the ground too? te black boxes are also only Tashmeshei Mitzvah for the mitzvah is the arbah parshios inside!

    #969491

    R.T.
    Participant

    Sam2: I respectfully disagree about what you wrote above. A siddur is not a Tashmishei Kedusha. It isn’t even a Tashmishei shel Mitzvah. A Tallis is a Tashmishei shel Mitzvah. We make a bracha on Tallis, we don’t make a bracha on a siddur. Tefillin is a Tashmishei shel Kedusha (since it has Shem HaShem written by a Sofer on Klaf with Kedusha, etc…

    One can not put Tefillin and Tallis together in the same bag; different levels of Kedusha.

    However, theoretically one could put a Tallis and a Shofar and an Etrog and a Siddur in the same bag… (I wouldn’t put a Lulav inside the same bag, but theoretically no problem either.)

    #969492

    Sam2
    Participant

    rt: A siddur has Shem Hashem. It’s as much Kedushah as any other Sifrei Kodesh. Why wouldn’t a Siddur be Tashmishei Kedushah?

    And dafyomi, you are incorrect. The Tefillin boxes and straps both have a Din of D’varim Shel K’dushah (not even Tashmishei, they’re Kedushah Atzmah), not Tashmishei Mitzvah.

    #969493

    R.T.
    Participant

    Sam2: You are correct that a siddur has Shem HaShem, but it doesn’t have the Kedusha of a Sefer Torah. Would anyone think of laining/getting aliyahs (with a Bracha) from a printed Chumash (it also has Shem HaShem)?

    There is even discussion about our ‘leniency’ of using printed Tanachs, Chumashim, etc… for Kriat HaHaftorah when in fact we should really be using Klafs (like Megilla) [whenever financially feasible].

    #969494

    Yosey
    Participant

    If one looks in the Me-asef Kol hamachanos on O.C. 21 he says that depending on how one learns the Gemorra in Brochos it is either Ossur or Muttar to drag the tzitzis on the ground. There are explanations that the Gemmorah was talking about tzitzis dragging on the ground of a cemetary where it would be Ossur because of Loeg L’rosh. (Teasing the dead who can no longer do the Mitzva) There are others that learn the Gemorah Simply that dragging Tzitzis on the ground ANYWHERE is ossur!

    The MB learned the second way, hence he says to put the tzitzis in one’s Gartel or belt.

    #969495

    Sam2
    Participant

    rt: Well, the Rama certainly entertained the possibility of Leining from a printed Chumash. That aside, though, I don’t see your point. Something can have Kedushah and not have the Kedushah level of a Sefer Torah. A siddur is a Davar Shel Kedushah because it has Shem Hashem.

    #969496

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    sam 2 fine even if your right the topic is dragging on the floor no one should be putting or dragging any dvarim shebekedusah on the floor it is mamesh a bizayon to the mitzvah.

    #969497

    Sam2
    Participant

    dafyomi: It’s not a Davar Shebikdusha. But leaving that aside, I think you should repeat your statement to R’ Yochanan’s (maybe it was R’ Yonasan’s) face.

    #969498

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    what would r Yochanan say about you considering tziztis not something which has kedusha what are they to you plain strings on an undershirt!( btw i’m not trying to be nasty i just would like to see everyone treating dvarim shel mitzvah with the proper respect they deserve)

    #969499

    Sam2
    Participant

    dafyomi: There are Halachic concepts here. D’varim Shel Kedushah are different than D’varim Shel Mitzvah. Kedushah is something that you have to have additional respect for. Mitzvah you don’t have to have respect for, you just aren’t allowed to outright disrespect them. Wearing clothes in a normal manner isn’t disrespect. If your Tzitzis hit the ground when you sit or walk or whatever, that’s fine. It’s not disrespect unless you’re walking through mud or something. You might not personally like the idea of Tzitzis touching the ground, but it’s M’vuar in the Gemara that it’s not disrespectful and that it’s Muttar.

    #969500

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    that gemorah is not a raiah his tzitzis happened to have dragged on the ground it fell down some how and he was told that is was loag larash how does that prove that it outright muttar! it’s ok if it hits the ground occasionally but to say that you can drag them lechatchila is ridiculous.

    #969501

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Gemara is a perfect Ra’aya. If the issue was that it’s always Assur, then the Gemara should have said so. The fact that it asks from Lo’eg LaRash means it’s only Assur in a cemetery.

    #969502

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    look in S”A siman 21:4 M”B S”K 18 case closed!

    #969503

    Sam2
    Participant

    I referenced that M”B earlier. He’s against the Gemara.

    #969504

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    you can’t paskin from the gemara and besides the gemara never said that it was outright mutar reb yochanan’s tzitzis just happened to of fallen down i’m sure it was just an accident! it’s a very weak proof.

    #969505

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s a good proof. If it was Assur and he did it, the Gemara would have said so, like it does whenever any of the Amoraim do anything wrong. Instead, the Gemara comments on why he did it in a cemetery.

    #969506

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    Do you purposely drop your tziztis on the ground based on this gemara? why was reb Yochanan wearing a talis in a cemetary anyway? they must have been attached to his outer garment which were different back then and they fell out accidentally. I’m just so surprised so many people just sit in sul with thier taliasim and or tziztis strewn on the floor with no regard for the mitzvah!

    #969507

    Sam2
    Participant

    Look, just because you think it’s a Bizayon of the Mitzvah doesn’t make it so. They are wearing the Tallis to fulfill the Mitzvah and that’s what they’re doing. Would you rather they not do the Mitzvah? That they be so preoccupied on tucking their Tzitzis into something that they not concentrate on Davening? Wearing the Tzitzis and proudly showing it (unless you have a Minhag not to) is the greatest Kavod you can give to it. The only way it would be a Bizayon would be if the floor was muddy or something like that.

    #969509

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    it is a bizayon to have a dvar mitzvah on the floor whether it is muddy dirty or clean as a whistle it does not matter why is this so hard to understand and i’m not saying they have to tuck it in thier belt just make sure it stays on your shoulders when i first started this thread so many people agreed with me and now we are the only ones left still keeping up the argument.

    #969511

    midwesterner
    Participant

    One of the rayos that is brought is from Ben Tzitzis Hakeses who was one of the three gvirim (together with Kalba Savua and Nakdimon ben Gurion) who had the means to support the entire city of Yerushalayim for a 21 year siege (see Gittin 56). The gemara says he was called this because his tzitzis dragged on cushions behind him as he walked. Some say (don’t remember offhand who) that if he bore that name as a shevach, then it must be that it was not a davar ossur to do.

    #969512

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    they were at least on cushions not on the floor!

    #969513

    midwesterner
    Participant

    I should’ve learned from the sagacious Sam. He gave up trying to explain how a raya from a gemara or a rishon works to someone with obviously very little experience.

    #969514

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    whew midwesterner nice blow! but the gemara you quoted clearly says there were cushions!! if you can put tzitzis on the floor itself why would he need those cushions? plain and simple no raya! and try and be a little nicer this close to Elul.

    #969515

    Sam2
    Participant

    Okay. I will try once more to go through this for you step by step.

    R’ Yonasan let his Tzitzis drag on the floor in a cemetery. R’ Chiya asked him how he could let that happen, it’s Lo’eg LaRash. R’ Yonasan replied that the Meisim don’t know what’s going on so there’s no Lo’eg LaRash. Now, clearly both of them hold that there was no problem with the Tzitzis being on the floor in general, because if there was either R’ Chiya or the Gemara would have said so.

    How is this not a Ra’aya B’rurah that it’s Muttar?

    #969516

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    You can not paskin from a story in a gemara no where in S”A does he use the word “mutar” for tziztis dragging on the floor and rightfully so. Also maybe in the gemara the amoraim were discussing the issur of loeg larash since they happened to be in a cematary how do u know they would not have discussed the bizayon of the mitzvah aspect of it had the circumstance been different?

    #969517

    Sam2
    Participant

    Because R’ Yonasan clearly thought there was nothing wrong with it. Otherwise he wouldn’t have defended himself. He would have admitted to being wrong.

    And the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t use the word “Muttar” for breathing either. You don’t need a Heter to do something that isn’t Assur. Lack of an Issur means that there’s nothing wrong with doing it.

    #969518

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    Sam you mentioned earlier in one of your posts that the Teffillin straps have a din of dvarim shebekedusah why do the straps have that din and tziztis don’t is it because they are made from wool and not leather ? (that’s ridiculous).They both have a din of dvar mitzvah and both dont belong on the floor! even if your right you dont have to leave it on the floor right? you are allowed to put it on your lap I hope?

    #969519

    Sam2
    Participant

    The straps of Tefillin have a Din of D’varim Shel Kedushah and not Mitzvah because you use the straps to make Shem HaShem.

    #969520

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    very interesting are you a rav?

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