Tznius: a woman’s issue

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  • #1814727
    bsharg2
    Participant

    “once I had a student who was always wearing the “wrong ” socks 9ie socks which the school didn’t allow) I bought her a bunch of permitted socks and wrapped them in nice paper and each day left a different pair in her locker with a funny note. Problem solved with out a word of tochacha. A year later we had a follow up discussion whith no anger and today this girl is married with children of her own and she always wears socks and is very tzanua. What would have happened if I would have punished her? yelled ? lectured? ”

    The way you handled this was really good. I think if you had yelled or lectured the girl, she would have been turned off, upset, and more likely to break halacha. But instead you made it into a positive thing by gifting her the socks, and set her on the right path!

    #1814764
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Bsharg2: Lovely story but could you explain how the girl would have gone OTD by wearing the “wrong socks” but by gifting the “right socks” she was set “on the right path”. What was wrong with her original socks.??

    #1814895
    klugeryid
    Participant

    I love when women tell men ”just don’t look ” mine your own business and then try to sell their difficulty as ”pressure ” to be in style.
    How about don’t look at the styles????

    #1814899
    klugeryid
    Participant

    This issue has two parts
    1 it’s a mitzvah just like any other, and maybe I should comment maybe not.
    2 it directly affects me. Hashem created men that they are attracted to females. That’s just the fact. So when a woman or girl dresses inappropriately, that will effect any man who can see her.
    It’s on different than if your Co worker started coming to work every day with a new cologne.
    Gasoline. 87 unleaded. Liberally sprayed on themselves.
    Imagine if you complained about the stench and they would respond, just don’t smell. Breath from your mouth and put on nose plugs. I have the right to spray what I want. It’s my body.
    Would anyone buy that answer???
    But somehow when a woman walks around smelling like gehennom, suddenly if a man says anything ”just don’t look ”
    It’s not his business

    News flash
    If you are affecting me, it is my business.
    And if you are dressing in a way that is not in accordance with halacha I have every right to complain.

    #1814901
    klugeryid
    Participant

    I’m married, and I have daughters and sisters as well.
    I’ve seen how girls check every part of their attire to make sure it’s all working together.
    Changing shirts, skirts, shoes, tights, even rings, because somehow (understandable to females only) the outfit doesn’t ”work ”
    And I’m all that she didn’t notice that it is an inch above her knee?? Really?? She say the thread hanging from the hem in the back of the skirt, but didn’t realize that the skirt is too short?? Really ??
    Who do you think you are fooling.
    When a girl puts on a short skirt she knows good and well that it’s short.
    There is nothing wrong with someone complaining about it.
    You don’t like that? Don’t wear it.

    #1815490
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a apparent argument between Rambam, Tosefos Yom Tov one view and Rashi about a mechitza what is its purpose. Rashi says not to mix whereas the Tosfas Yom Tov says not to stare. What happens when it is good for separation but not for looking being not tall enough or with holes in it? Reb Moshe ztz’l says that as long it separates and don’t look. There was a ruling in 1866 by the abour 200 rabonim, in a place callled Mihelowiz, that in a shul not having a proper Mechitza where the men can see the women, one should not daven there even if he must daven on his own Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

    #1815668
    klugeryid
    Participant

    R e
    Your point??

    #1815691
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, Reb Moshe ztz’l uses this logic, don’t look, even though in a shul because of its sanctity the yetzer hara is stronger.
    The following are the words:
    שו”ת אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק א סימן מ
    בכל מקום שהוא דין על האנשים שלא יסתכלו בהן כמו ברחובות ואם יש מי שיעבור ויסתכל בכוונה לראות ליהנות אין אנו אחראין להם

    #1815693
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, Doesn’t a shul have a responsibility to build it the proper way that the women should not be seen? Are the women right when they say don’t look?

    #1815702
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Um, no not at all. That’s not what he is saying in the pull quote you posted.
    He is saying that if a shul does build a מחיצה that is kosher, the fact that someone may choose on purpose to stare at the women is not our problem. A man always has a חיוב to watch his eyes and can’t pass it off by saying build a better מחיצה so I won’t be able to look.
    ואם יש מי שיעבור ויסתכל בכוונה
    That’s from your quote
    That means that on purpose the man is looking.
    Here we are discussing the fact that when I go to my local grocery store there are ostensibly religious women dressed in a decidedly אסור mode.
    They are for the most part
    מזידים
    מחטיאי הרבים
    ועתידין ליתן את הדין
    מרחקים הקב”ה ממחנינו
    No they have no right to say don’t look.
    R Moshe is talking about one who is trying to look
    I am talking about placing a stumbling block in front of someone trying not to look.
    I guess that except for the fact that they are totally opposite, they are the same

    #1816062
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, why does Reb Moshe ztz’l come to the conclusion that Rashi and the Rambam in Sukkah are arguing? Maybe Rashi might hold that if you stare. you will mix, so if you see through is not a kosher mechitza as the Tosfas Yom Tov?

    • This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1816065
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, if the two things are different (looking and mixing) then the Rambam is contradicting himself. In the commentary on the Mishnayos Sukkah (5,2) he says שלא יסתכלו whereas in Hilchas Lulav (8,12) says שלא יתערבו.

    #1818045
    Modesty
    Participant

    Here we go again with this lovely topic
    Why do we dress not tznius?
    Men please. it’s a Yetzer Hara for women you will never understand us so please mind your own business

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