Tznius in front of Non Jews

does yoseph robinson ring ANYY bells at all?

he’s been nifter stam a week and we can’t remember him and remember his story?

if anything we should learn from him that

“( and verified as non jews i.e african americans)”

is completely and utterly a WRONG attitude.

i expected better from the cr.

whatelseisleft, I was thinking of the same thing (not exactly of Yosef Robinson HY”D, but on the same lines).

However, “potsandpans” was asking about something else (which I won’t comment on.)

Reb Moshe says that a Yirei Shomayim shouldn’t let his wife go to an all-woman beach where the lifeguard is a man.

What happened to Siman Beis in shulchan aruch?

I have been asking myself the same question since yesterday when Chossan uncovered an apparent contradiction in Shulchan Aruch.

On one hand, a person must dress with Tznius. MB says this includes socks (at least when they did not wear pants).

On the other hand, a person can read (and be Yotze) Kriyas Shema bare-chested. Tefilla, the MB says, requires additional Kavod (Omed L’Fnei Hamelech) and a shirt. No mention of socks, etc.

Again, the key word in Siman Beis is “L’Olam”. Ask your LOR for actual practice.

However:

Simin Beis is based off (BY there) a Gemorah in Shabbos 118B:

??”? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????

Seems like this was a Hanhaga that R’ Yosi did that he was M’Shabach himself for it, and the Tur/SA suggests we do the same as well.

Also see Rashi on the Gemorah there.

One should never be untzniusdig in front of ANY man, goy or Jew (except for that person’s spouse and only when not in niddah). Either one is tzniusdig or one is not. Period.

gavra, I don’t see any contradictions. It isn’t saying its okay to prance around bare chested. But ipso facto if he already said kriyas shema like that, the shema was yotza.

I wish it would be that simple. The SA says Mutar Likros, meaning L’chatchila.

And it is clearly 100% assur for a woman to be untzniusdik in front of a goy or otherwise.

Source? And please don’t say shoshanas whatever that MR brought (or anything similar).

Not that I disagree. But I would like to see it inside a Real Sefer from a Posek.

I have no idea what the actual halacha is. According to my understanding the laws of tznius can be relaxed in an all-women environment. I have no idea whether there is a problem around non-Jewish men. There is probably a chumra not to even if it is halachically allowed but that is just a chumra, not necessarily halacha.

As an aside (and to open another can of wormy fish), I have a feeling that sweat pants may not be as big of a problem as short sleeves/skirts. Although frum women are noheig not to wear pants in public, I don’t think it is as big of a halachik issue as actually uncovering a part of the body that is considered erva and there might therefore be leniencies in this particular situation. (Many frum women doctors will wear scrubs at work even though it is pants).

The bigger problem would be the fact that she is doing exercise in front of men which itself is usually not very tznius no matter how tzniusly she is dressed. Therefore I think the question should be rephrased to is it OK to exercise in front of a confirmed non-Jewish man.

BTW, I see no problem with the comment of “( and verified as non jews i.e african americans)”. If an African American converts to Judaism he is probably not attending exercise with women. The poster just meant that it is obvious that the men are not Jewish. With whites there is a greater chance that the man might be an assimilated Jew and it can be hard to verify while by African Americans you can probably rely on Rov.

Of course it’s not ideal but I heard that it’s okay to if you need to or want to for whatever reason.

Helpful, a doctor is ok too.

SJSinNYC-

Not all doctors 🙂

Ben Torah:

Interesting. My reading says that the issue Rav Moshe is worried about is Yichud, not Tznius. He specificly states that since it is a woman’s swimming pool there is no problem of tznius. His issue seems to be the Man’s issur and Yichud.

End story, ask your Rav. But this is not a source.

A doctor is there to save your life. And btw, I personally try to get female docs, as much as possible, though in some fields, that is more difficult than others.

Hairdressers OTOH, are not a necessity of life, but a nice luxury. You can always chop off your own hair, but you cannot take out your own appendix. I would not go to male Jewish hairdresser, there are so many females in the field, there is no justification for doing so.

This story was printed in one of the Maggid books (or I heard it on a R’ Krohn tape) and addresses the importance of tznius among goyim:

(this is the abridged version)

Germany 1939 – Teen girl is left to close up house and then meet up with family out of town at grandparents house in a few days (where the rest of the family is, till things “cool down”).

Heat turns up. Teen thinks, now is time to go, but how to avoid being spotted? Decides to “loosen hair, open top button, ect” so she looks less jewish.

Stops short and thinks about what momma said, “affileh far de fir vent darf men zech shaimen” (even for the 4 walls, you have to act with modesty).

Pulls hair together, closes button and heads for Grandmas place. Trip is uneventful, but quite scary. Upon arrival, she tells momma about the choice she made. Smart move says momma, reaching for and pulling on the chain around teen’s neck. Had you gone out with an open button, your mogen dovid (or some other very jewish pendant, not sure which) would have given you away.

Bottom line: Tzinus is always the best route (and always listen to momma!)

By the way, the goyim notice that we dress differently and some really respect it. It shows how special we are when we act and dress more refined. I was in a department store last summer and a security guad asked me how come we dress in long sleeves in the summer. I wasnt gonna give him a whole hashkafah laesson so i just said something about modesty- I think he was impressed. It was a good feeling to know that we are noticed that we dress more refined.

“Tznius in front of Non Jews”.

I think the title for this thread is wrong.

Does it matter if the person in front of you is a co-religionist or of the same gender? Shivisi hashem linegdi tamid.

I use the following rule of thumb. If I wont do it/dress that way in front of my boss, I sure as heck am not doing it in front of the ribbono shel olam.

Tznius is about the person him/herself not about who they are dressed infront of.

It sure is about who they are in front of and who sees them.

“Tznius is about the person him/herself not about who they are dressed in front of.”

it’s both. there are two concepts in tznius. 1) in front of others (which applies more/mostly to women)and the shayla once came up if girls can go swimming near a guest house that was being built by goyim (and they could see in a little) and it was – assur. 2) in front of Hashem. In front of yourself

Certainly, Da’as Yehudis is a social principle; aka one of dignity. One woman (and a man, in a different context) must maintain her dignity at all times. In an all-female environment, one may maintain her dignity even when dressed differently then in the street. This applies to every single place and enviroment a woman is in.

Each situation has it’s daas yehudis. I understand there is a modesty which frum women have when swimming amoung themselves; this too would be daas yehudis.

One certainly loses dignity when being exposed in front of non-jews- unlike when around women. Hence, daas yehudis would forbid it. Forbidden, even in the Bahamas.

Beyond that, we have the dorasayah aspect of lifney iver. Lifney Iver does apply to a non-jew, as well. Hence, we have the multitude of issurim regarding causing a non-jew to worship avodah zara, to the point the beis yakov forbids business parntership with an akum; worrying that it will lead him to swear in the name of his god. Worry not, the Remah permits it based on the fact that non-jews are not prohibited from Shituf (aka christianity) – who leaves out the shaala of paganism.

We find a machlokes haposkim as far as if non-jews are obligated in hirhur relative to a woman who is forbidden to them. I presumably the lifney iver is contingent on that. Of course, the question continues of trey avrey d’nahar, which I wonder how to apply to modesty. Presumably trey avrey d’nahar always applies (aka creating issur and non merely facillitating it).

I would find this, therefore, to be forbidden (I didn’t see R’ Moshe, but I presume that his permission for a male lifeguard is based on tarud b’malachto, just like a doctor. I would be hesitant to apply this to a hairdresser; surely enough intelligent bais yakov girls become shaitel machers? In Israel, I have heard that charedi beaches often have male lifeguards, based on the fact that beach requires additional strength to pull a woman out of the water, and therefore they are mekel – even though they could easyily hirer female lifeguards)

requires additional strength to pull a woman out of the water, and therefore they are mekel.

You mean to tell me, the female israeli is strong enought to be drafted and do army work (as good, pehaps better than some men), but cannot do lifeguard work?

Yeah, right.

“I meant tznius is about the person him/

herself not about who they are

dressed infront of, so it doesn’t make a difference where you are you’ve still got to be careful. “

You misunderstood my point. I use my boss as a point of reference for myself. It has everything to do with how I would act/dress/speak in any given situation.

haifagirl, you just answered why women should not be overly-concerned with tznius in front of other women, if they are wearing clothing over their bathing suits that could potentially cause them to drown. That might be thought of as being a tznuah shotah.

pots, what makes you sure that the male classmates (in the dance school or exercise class) are not Jewish? and secondly the heter described by others above attributed to R. Moshe seems to apply to something like a lifeguard specifically since that is a potentially pikuach nefesh situation.

Mod 42. For the record, the answer to your question is yes. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. Let’s forget for a moment how the woman is dressed during excercise, the act of excercising in and of itself it in many cases not tzniusdkik. The question should really be, are the laws of tznius somehow different in front of non jewish men with excercise being just one example.

Regarding males at a female production, I remember seeing in the igros moshe that under extenuating circumstances (in the case of the shayla it would have caused a tremendous machlokes in the area) men would be allowed to attend as long as the girls were less than 11 years old, if older he held it was assur. Bli neder later today will provide the source in igros moshe.

“thats why I asked if there is a chiyuv to dress tzniuskdkly in presence of goyim”

If you worked in an all non jewish company, would you be permitted to dress in a manner not conforming to halachos of tznius? I’m just not understanding where non jews enter the equation.