Tznius of the legs – Oz V’hadar Levusha

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  • #1959798
    tryingtobeinspired
    Participant

    I’m going to leave out as many details as possible for privacy’s sake.
    I’m very confused. Over the past few months, I have been endlessly working on as many ruchnius aspects of my life as possible. But now I’m stumped. I started working on Tznius by reading Sefer Oz V’hadar Levusha, and it’s been great! Well great until now. I got up to the part about wearing tights, which I do on a daily basis but what are the best possible tights to wear? Generally, I wear opaque black tights but that’s going to be really hard to do in the heat of the upcoming summer. Should I start wearing seamed tights in the summer? Should I start wearing opaque beige tights in the winter? What’s the most tznius option? I want to do the best I could but it’s kinda hard when you don’t know the correct answer…
    Any thoughts?

    #1959978
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    “Any thoughts?” yes you shold be cleaning for peasch instead of trolling

    #1959979
    huju
    Participant

    If you want lots of options, you have come to the right place. If you want a correct answer, well ….

    And if you want a single correct answer, don’t ask me.

    #1960006
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The redemption came because of pious women. The Chasam Sofer explains that by Kabolas Hatorah the men were required to gain their own zechusim, benefits and not rely on women, al tigshu el haishah.

    #1960007
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A woman puts on a wig, not very comfortable in the summer, just for the benefit of the men as the woman can pray in her own hair.

    #1959999
    ujm
    Participant

    “that’s going to be really hard to do in the heat of the upcoming summer.”

    Is that any harder than wearing a hat or shteimal, jacket or bekeshe, wool tzitzis, full length shirt and pants in the summer?

    #1960023
    bored guy
    Participant

    What happened to asking a rav your hashkafa questions?

    #1960086
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    As a man, I feel like I shouldn’t have a say in this matter. But it’s my understanding that tzniuyus tights are a minhag ha’makom and vary greatly from place to place. What’s standard in one community is unacceptable in another, and vice versa. If you have a question, ask your local Rebbetzin.

    #1960058
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    If you are going to use that book, be aware that much of what is presented as basic halchah is NOT halachah at all, but extreme chumros.
    A well-known and respected Rosh Yeshiva once told me that Oz V’hadar Levusha does more harm than good, as it scares people away by being way too stringent.

    #1960212

    DaMoshe >> scares people away by being way too stringent.

    a good point. Another side is – where do you concentrate your efforts of improvements. For example, kids that learn chumros in school, presented as halakha and then criticize their mother’s kitchen- instead of helping her. Try picking up chumros that would require you to make a continuous effort but not immediate validation by outsiders. Wake up early, prepare breakfast for your mom, teach younger siblings, help an old lady with groceries. In this case, you will be sure that you are actually doing a right thing rather than just looking for external approval.

    #1960214
    takahmamash
    Participant

    “Is that any harder than wearing a hat or shteimal, jacket or bekeshe, wool tzitzis, full length shirt and pants in the summer?”

    There’s no halacha that says one *must* wear a hat or shteimal [sic], jacket or bekeshe, or tzitzit made of wool.

    #1960291
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The halacha is encouraged to wear a hat and jacket by davenen SA O’CH 91,6 and MB s’k 12 there.

    #1960304

    >> encouraged to wear a hat and jacket

    “How do we know Yaakov Avinu weared a shterimel? – VeYetze Yaakov ni Beer Sheva …”

    Both sources seem to stress the focus on local customs and how one would approach an important person. No bare legs (back to this thread). Sh’A is also directing this to Chachamim and their students. These days, we don’t seem to even bother mention this qualification, but it used to be a difficult one to achieve.

    #1960254
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Damoshe: I would have phrased what you said significantly more strongly if I could have gotten away with it.

    That book is (at the very best) not for everyone.

    In Rabbi Falk’s defense, there are very few halachos of tznius that apply objectively to all, regardless of minhag. Thus, the book, while mostly detailed opinion, doesn’t directly contradict halachah – as there mostly is none.

    #1960341
    ujm
    Participant

    HaRav Pesach Eliyahu Falk ZT”L cites the actual sources in Halacha throughout the Sefer.

    It’s every father/husband’s halachic obligation to insure compliance with all the relevant halachos by his family members.

    #1960382
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think we all agree that it’s against halacha to dress not b’tznius.

    I think we also all agree that it’s not always easy to clearly deliniate what is considered b’tznius.

    So we can’t figure out the actual halacha by looking it up in Shulchan Aruch as I think (or at least hope) we can all agree that there are clear violations of tznius which are not found explicitly in Shulchan Aruch.

    So we leave it to the poskim to determine whether individual cases of styles of dress conform to acceptable tznius standards.

    Rav Falk zt”l was a big talmid chochom (just read his teshuvos on a broad range of topics) and was certainly entitled to his opinion as to what does and does not conform to halacha.

    Someone claiming that what he said as halacha is really chumra better be in his league in learning to have such an opinion. If your rav says he disagrees, fine, but just realize that Rav Falk was a massive talmid chochom and he held something was assur (not chumra) then it’s not proper to dismiss it as chumra without qualifying that “my rav disagrees and says it’s not absolutely necessary”.

    #1960402
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The chassidim say to wear a long garb because the Jews borrowed clothing from Mitzraim and were told to put it on their sons. Why, because it was too short for them. I think there is no proof as if you need clothing and the children, they come first. A pious men is not left behind and his children look for bread as his children will come first, so he will make sure his children are fed.

    #1960404

    I looked up hespedim about R’Falk and saw one that admiringly describes the phenomenon I saw in other places: at the firs hilchos shabbos class at Gateshead, he pointed out that there are a couple of things that many make mistake in… Girls were dismayed when they realized it – and ran to the phones to call their mothers and teach them! The article does not mention what the issue was, unfortunately, so I can’t evaluate the issue on the merits, but now I do have a bad feeling about where my family stands.

    There are only 2 days to the BIG shabbos, so could someone who called or got a call from Gateshead share it with us? I think you can share Torah for free even if you paid high tuition for it.

    Hesped also says that “of course” R Falk “was the last person” to encourage girls to learn Gemorah, but he would refer to machlokes in Gemroah when explaining material. This should be called “skirting the issue”.

    #1960756
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “A woman puts on a wig, not very comfortable in the summer, just for the benefit of the men as the woman can pray in her own hair.“

    Sorry for the late reply

    A tichel (snood) would be just as comfortable at plain hair and I don’t think she wearing it just for her husband

    #1960739
    catch yourself
    Participant

    @Yserbius – Halacha is not woke.

    If someone says, “As an עם הארץ, I do not feel I should have an opinion…” that’s one thing.

    Do you think that only potatoes can have an opinion on whether it should be muttar to use peelers on Yom Tov?

    Why shouldn’t a man have an opinion on a Halachic question that is practically relevant only to women?

    Should your Rav (who is a man) be precluded from ruling on Niddah shaylos?

    #1960731
    Shoshana MD
    Participant

    Be inspired! It is possible to find medium to relatively light weight stockings that are opaque and are manageable in the summer once you get used to them. My 60 denier stockings (measure of density of weave) work in Los Angeles even in very hot weather. If you live in Brooklyn, you might try Family Hose. They have a range of stockings in different weights and densities. They do not need to be bullet proof, just not see through on the part of the leg that is below your skirt. Try going one size up from what the manufacturer recommends for your build, since when the stockings are not as stretched out, they are less see-through. Be gentle with yourself and ignore the negative comments. If your neshama really wants it to work, then Hashem will make your body adapt to wearing such stockings. Even though Oz v’Hadar contains chumras, there are those women who aspire to a higher level than just basic halacha. I wonder if some of the men who responded don’t look for every hiddur when they buy an esrog and/or put in much effort to learn a difficult sugyia in gemara. Tznius is our sugya (subject) that the Vilna Gaon says is to women what Torah is to men. Go for it! Wishing you much siyata d’Shamaya.

    #1960803
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, there is also the importance of שלא יתגנה על בעלה too look good, beneficial for both and for that reason girls don’t cover their hair.

    #1960839
    huju
    Participant

    There are a number of YWN commenters whose screen names end in MD. Are they purporting to be physicians or residents of Maryland?

    #1961477
    Avi K
    Participant

    That book is super machmir. This is very common as those who write the books are generally scared of being condemned and even banned. Rav Yehuda Henkin has another view called “UNDERSTANDING TZNIUT: Modern Controversies in the Jewish Community”. There is also “Halichos Bas Yisrael: A Woman’s Guide to Jewish Observance” by Rabbi Yitzchak Yaacov Fuchs. Find a derech that is comfortable for you.

    #1961579
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Like RE I too am an alman for a few years. A woman passes away , her husband mourns primarily. Like by Rus. The only thing I remember about Rav PEF sefer is that he glamorizes the dayelet as a tzniut model. Anybody remember the levaya of Rav Henkin on the LES? If I remember Harav Schorr zatzal was in excessive mourning. It was in the early 70’s I think.

    #1961645
    ujm
    Participant

    BE: What is “dayelet”? There’s absolutely no mention of that in the Sefer. And what’s your point about Rav Henkin and Rav Schorr?

    #1961735
    Avi K
    Participant

    Ujm, a dayelet is a stewardess in Hebrew.

    #1961746
    Benephraim
    Participant

    M
    Thanks for the kind words. I was responding to the mention of Rav Henkin’s nephew in Israel. Thought some might remember the levaya of the uncle who was the Posek Hador. If anybody spots the dayelet please let us know. BE

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