September 30, 2013 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #977156
* Since the time of the Geonim.September 30, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #977157mddMember
GAW??September 30, 2013 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #977158
MDD: The most broadly religious and Torahdik, yes.
That is not to say we have the Tzadikkim of earlier generations, but we do (or did, before the internet Nisayon) have the most knowledgable and Torahdik Baalei Battim ever, as well as the broadest base of Talmidei Chachamim. Chalk it up to universal education (and the wealth needed to provide it).
The internet may change that, but boruch Hashem it hasn’t happened yet.October 1, 2013 3:26 am at 3:26 am #977159mddMember
GAW, I am sorry I had not seen you previous post. Now that I have, I can respond.
A lot of those tznius inyonim are middas chassidus. Even such a machmir as Rabbi Falk would agree that they get pushed aside to maintain sholom bais. Except for the things which are Halochically required, but there are very few of them.
(Covering the hair in the courtyard would be a requirement.)October 1, 2013 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #977160
(Covering the hair in the courtyard would be a requirement.)
The Bais Shmuel disagrees. I’ll stick with him.
If it is a “requirement”, it has to fall under wither Da’as Moshe or Da’as Yehudis.October 1, 2013 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #977161
I think some of us err when we refer to women who dress in less than (what some of us consider to be) tzniusdig clothing, as a “struggle” for them. Perhaps that is true for SOME young women who are trying to find their tznius hashkafa, but on balance, I would be willing to bet that most young ladies who wear shorter skirts are not struggling. They are doing so because they like the style and are perfectly content with the status quo. It is only a nisayon for those who feel conflicted, to begin with.October 1, 2013 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #977162
Oomis: Chazal say that deep down, everyone wants to do the Ratzon Hashem. It is only the Galus & Yetzer Hara whofight and stop them.
Some people may have “given up”. Some may not yet have started to fight. Some may be taking a breather before going back into it. But everyone is in the war.October 1, 2013 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #977163
GAW, we don’t disagree at all. I just believe that there are girls who view their style of dress as totally appropriate, no matter what others think, and they are not struggling within themselves to be more tzniusdig in that respect. The only ones who are truly struggling are girls who RECOGNIZE that their is a problem with what they are wearing, but will continue to do so anyway and feel guilty about it. Would you agree that there are people who feel NO guilt at all about various things that they do, like eating tarfus, not keeping Shabbos, not going to the mikveh, etc? Those are people who are not conflicted, and there are girls who are Shomros Shabbos who likewise are NOT conflicted when they wear short sleeves, pants, short skirts, etc. If and when they go to Seminary in E”Y, many DO come back, no longer comfortable with what they used to do.October 1, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #977164
Oomis: I would rather think of them as being unaware that they are conflicted 🙂
Good point.October 2, 2013 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #977165miritchkaMember
Wow! this thread has so many opinions, its scary! I read almost all the posts and decided to add my own thoughts:
1) we cannot judge previous generations! what is an issue now with tznius is affected by and is a result of influences from today!
2) a woman is required to cover certain parts of her body. it is not always easy, but there is a very large variety of clothing and alot of stores with different price ranges that sell tznius clothing.
3) dress how you want for your husband, dont dres that way in public for others to be attracted to you. This reminds me of a story my kallah teacher once told me.
A couple went to E”Y on vacation and the wife realized when she landed that she didnt have a head for her shaitel. Not knowing what to do, she started to knock on neighbors doors. A rebbitzen answered at her first stop. Dressed in a turban with a shpitzel and ultra tznius clothing and being a chashuva woman, the wife started to stammer about knocking on the wrong door and was about to turn away when the woman asked her if she could help her in any way. Stammering and blushing, she told her what she needed and asked if she knew someone who had an extra shaitel head. The woman invited her in and to teh wifes surprise, handed her the head. The wife was so surprised and the woman said, i wear my beautiful clothing for my husband, not for public.
I dont know how to tell this story as my kallah teacher did, but you get the point.October 3, 2013 3:03 am at 3:03 am #977166
You told the story just fine.
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