September 10, 2017 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1360022
I think that is very much a personal opinion. Many may agree but I’m sure many disagree on both points as well.September 11, 2017 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1360165
Shopping613 I never said tznius clothing isn’t available. all I said was its very difficult to stand out as the only girl who’s knees are covered and clothing that isn’t tight fittedSeptember 11, 2017 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1360169
Rannd0m3x however you look at it its our (woman’s not men’s) treasureSeptember 11, 2017 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1360172
Rebyid123 no one said the world is fair and since we don’t know how hashem rewards it might not be fair to men that they don’t have this treasureSeptember 11, 2017 6:12 am at 6:12 am #1360211
Who said tzniyus can’t be fun and enjoyable?
I live in Israel, so I definitely don’t stand out. That for me isn’t an issue, it’s wanting to look less tzniyudisk.September 11, 2017 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1360227
Shopping613 who said tznius can’t be fun?
How can a big struggle such as standing out as the only girl who’s knees are covered be fun. I’m trying to be more tznius but when I dress very not tznius I got a lot more positive attention that is very enjoyable and fun.
The only motivation I have to be tznius is the that it’s a treasure from hashem for us girls and we get a mitzvah every second that we are tznius. Therefore I suggest to all of us who struggle with being tznius is to look at the positive IE the great reeard we are getting for that little time that we are tznius and not on the negative the fact that most of the day we are very not tznius.
Like with anything else a step at time is what does it.September 11, 2017 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1360448
It’s all int the perspective.
Perhaps you need to get new friends, ones striving to be more tzniyus. Perhaps you need to learn more about it…
Modesty, there’s so much you can do and learn!September 11, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1361346
Shopping613 what do you mean by It’s all int the perspective. True this mitzvah of being tznius is a very special treasure for us girls
How ever its still by far the hardest one to keep. The sacrifice is is huge. Eg. Tight clothing is so much more comfortable
Revealing clothing is a lot of fun especially when its hot outside. Also you are part of the club and best of all i feel im a lot more noticed when I dress very not tznius
I agree that these are just the yetzer hara but let’s face it its not easySeptember 11, 2017 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1361373
Modesty – I agreed with you up until this last post. I think the pull that some girls have toward non tznius clothing is beyond some people’s understanding. You should know, though, that this isn’t a challenge for all girls. And I do not believe that wearing these clothes is “fun”. Getting attention may be fun but I think it is more like satisfying an addiction than enjoyment (my opinion, not telling you what you feel) I also don’t believe that tight clothes are more comfortable. Some people may find them more comfortable, but many don’t, I think it goes back to the yetzer hara, as you say, feeding the wrong attributes.
The rest of your post made me so sad. Some people who look up to the wrong role models will feel “beautiful” wearing clothes that those role models wear (ie magazine, Hollywood). They see a certain look as being “in” based on what they see in that world. Not because of attention, but a draw to be beautiful in the sense they have adopted. But to make yourself into an object so that you can fit into a club and be noticed is more than just a pull of the yetzer hara. That sounds like using your body to detract from your ‘self’ in order to fill a deep hole of inadequacy that says, “I don’t know how much person I have to offer so I’ll just offer some skin. That never fails and the personal, emotional risk is so much less”
Your posts are amazing. I have found many of your comments to be mature and impressive and you sound like someone who has a TON to offer to the RIGHT CROWD! So if you can only find a club where people think of your outsides as being your focus, you might want to ease in to another club. You can wow them as well for parts of you that are much more valuable and have real friendships that are not about how tight your clothes are.
Hatzlacha Rabba – keep up the great work!!!!September 11, 2017 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1361386
Who are you being noticed by and getting attention from?September 11, 2017 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1361442
Does “everyone” include males of the species?September 12, 2017 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1361675
I know how you feel. On some level there are times I want to look “hollywood pretty” (There’s another less apropriate word in m y head) rather than “real pretty”. Looking attracting rather than attractive.
It’s hard. But you need to learn to appreciate real beauty. Being pretty while not flaunting your body is a wonderful feeling. It comes with sacrafic, but you get used to new things.
I feel like looser clothing is much more comfortable after getting used to it. Also, I get a good feeling that I’m be being revealing but yet I’m pretty.
Learn more about it and you can learn to love this gift tooSeptember 12, 2017 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1361903
Shopping – we are attracted to things that are attractive because they are by definition they are attracting. In other words active = attracting it’s the same root word. I think it’s interesting how attractive has become synonymous with modesty or tznius. I could think of other words that people use to describe girls who are dressed attractive and perhaps it’s along the same lines as you were thinking. Tznius is about covering the body and taking focus away from it.September 12, 2017 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1362243
i think the biggest “problem” with tznius today is that everyone is worried about everyone elses tznius and not their own.September 12, 2017 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1362245
Loose clothing is a fire hazard.September 12, 2017 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1362272
JJ2020, is creative the same as creator? Is derivative the same as derive?September 12, 2017 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1362280MenoParticipant
Is attractive the same as a tractor?September 12, 2017 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1362283
Reb Yid -Men are attracted to attractively dressed woman. If a man is being attracted the object of attraction is attracting.September 12, 2017 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1362318
(There used to be a response from Modesty between my last 2 posts.)
(Men are not only attracted to attractively dressed women.)
While the language is technically incorrect, the idea is that the woman’s attire
is aesthetically pleasing, but does not cause increased male attention.September 12, 2017 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1362346
That’s what I meant. Attractive, pretty but not attracting…
Wish I could have a convo IRL with you bout it…September 12, 2017 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1362351MenoParticipant
Is anyone gonna answer my question?September 12, 2017 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1362433
Meno- if it will make you feel better. A tractor thats on sale hal price is attractive to a farmer in Texas who lost his in a hurricane.September 12, 2017 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1362510
Shopping613 thanks for the chizuk I’m glad you understand where I’m coming fromSeptember 12, 2017 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1362513
Shopping613 thanks for the chizuk ots greatly appreciatedSeptember 13, 2017 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1362534
Any recommendations on a good book written in English for guidance on the laws of tznios one that will develop in us a love for tznius. not a book on all the don’t do this don’t do this kind of stuff rather one that will be positiveSeptember 13, 2017 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1362540
Gila manolson author of the magic touch wrote a book on tznius called outside inside.September 13, 2017 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1362541Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
“Outside, Inside” by Gila Manolson. I recommended it in the past to another poster who bought it on my recommendation. Based on things that you’ve written, I think it’s right up your alley!
You might also be interested in “The Magic Touch” by the same author. It’s about being shomer negiah, but she writes a lot about tznius in general.
Her books are not about the halachos – they are meant to develop a love for tznius.September 13, 2017 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1362559hmlParticipant
The problem doesn’t originate with men making rules – it begins AT HOME. If mothers set standards by example,their daughters will follow (unless something makes them rebel, a whole different topic.) I set standards in my home and to this day, my daughters (married with their own families) always dress and act appropriately. B”H, I see my teenage granddaughters following in their mothers’ footsteps.
These young mothers with their hotsie-totsie sheitels & clothing got it from somewhere. Their mothers little hypocrisies (wearing lurid colors or ostentatious jewelry but not letting their daughters) and “do as I say not as I do” attitudes festered in their children. I can’t imagine what girls will look like in 2 generations.September 13, 2017 9:50 am at 9:50 am #1362614
I can. fine bnos yisroel.September 13, 2017 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1362711RedlegParticipant
Some random thoughts on tznius:
1. When the Navi says,”…hatzneiah leches im Elokechah.” He isn’t talking about women’s hemlines. For that matter, he isn’t talking to women. He is telling all of Klal Yisroel to eschew arrogance and ostentation in their service of HaShem (“look how frum I am”) and in their daily lives.
2. What constitutes ervah is, at least in part, determined by community standards. For instance, in a community where women wear sleeves to the wrist, a bare forearm might very well be ervah. Whereas those communities that only require the arm and elbow be covered would be perfectly okay with bare forearms.
3. The prohibition that a women violates when immodestly dressed is Lifnei Iver. The thing to remember about Lifne i Iver is that the issur is not causing someone to stumble but placing the michshol itself. Therefore telling men not to look or to control their thoughts is meaningless. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of men can and do control themselves. That doesn’t mitigate the issur in the least.September 13, 2017 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1362744
Hatsnea leceh applies to women even when there are no men around, and to men, when there are no women around.September 13, 2017 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1362977
In that case, the first word applies specifically to the second.September 13, 2017 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1363140yid18Participant
Modesty – You sound like a writer. You should be writing in Hamodia on different topics. Your article was quite interesting.September 13, 2017 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1363146
redleg – nicely put!September 13, 2017 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1363168
(1. Or in other words, that doesn’t have anything to do with this issue.)
2. Parts that it is customary to cover in one’s community must be
covered, but I don’t think it’s forbidden to say divrei kedushah in
their presence if they are not covered.September 13, 2017 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1363169
That article was written by Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss.
(That’s probably in Modesty’s last pending post, but maybe it isn’t.)September 13, 2017 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1363170
There is a huge difference between feeling restricted by strict modesty rules and wanting to purposely tempt men.September 13, 2017 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1363207Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
You might find Rav Orlofsky’s tape on platonic relationships useful as well. It’s not about the aspect of tznius you are talking about, but it’s all connected, and I think it could help you to appreciate the concept of tznius and understand why it’s in your best interest to be tznius.September 14, 2017 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1363314
It would be a great idea if someone can come up with a nice prayer for us girls that we should all rase our level of tznius and enjoy this mitzvah/treasure.
I don’t want to sound like a feminist but the prayer when a woman lights candles on erev Shabbos is only about her sons lighting up the world with there torah. And nothing about her daughter’s being uplifted by tznius. I’M not saying we shouldn’t pray for our sons success in Torah rather we should also pray for our doughters to strengthen the level of tznius. We see how much all the criticism about tznius accomplished just about nothing. every passing year the tznius level goes down. We need to take action We should also create a yom tifilahSeptember 14, 2017 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1363583
“we should also pray for our doughters to strengthen the level of tznius. ”
why dont you?September 14, 2017 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1363586
Also, why do you assume bonim and bnei bonim specifically means male children? ohavei hashem, yirei elokim, anshei emes, zera kodesh…..this applies equally to females.September 14, 2017 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1363589
a daughter who is an ohev hashem, yirei elokim will not blatantly flaunt halachos of tznius, in all its aspects.September 14, 2017 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1363600
Modesty – it’s a very good idea. There must be some teffila like this already and if not it would be great for one to be written. If they do a teffilah for the Madina they could also do one for tznius.September 14, 2017 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1363621
Another point that will help us improve on tznius is that the frum publications should allow pictures of women and girls.
Magazines such as bina mishpacha etc. that are ment for women don’t have any female pictures. And as young girls the only female pictures we see are from the non Jewish media (no need to Elaborate on that) and that causes us to emulate them instead of our own. Imagine if we girls open a frum magazine and see how our woman all dress tznius we will have who to emulate instead of banning all female pictures from our frum publications. Show us girls who we should look up to. I believe if this would be corrected together with tifilah it will put an end to all the fun of not being tznius and show us the fun and valuable treasure of dressing tznius all the timeSeptember 14, 2017 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1363643
This post should be used to for us girls to share ideas on how we should love to be tznius at all times of the day
As we see criticism doesn’t work si lets do with out it.
Please post only positive ideas and lets ask YWN to change the title from tznius problems to tznius improvementsSeptember 14, 2017 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1363669
Most tznius problems stem from feeling restricted to a narrower range of fashion choices. Yours stem from a feeling of powerlessness that you want to make up for by exerting your power over men.September 14, 2017 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1363683RedlegParticipant
1. That particular pasuk in Micah is often quoted as source text for the subject discussed in this thread. “Tznius” I.E. female modesty.
2. The Halachah is contextual as well. In the community described, it may very well be assur to daven in front of a woman with an exposed forearm. Likewise, in a community where women only cover the shoulder and top of the upper arm it would appear to be muttar to daven if front of a women so attired.September 14, 2017 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1363769slominerParticipant
Redleg, are you arguing that if the community standard is sleeveless, then that is okay to dress as and daven in front of?September 14, 2017 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1363840
Rebyidd23 Yours stem from a feeling of powerlessness that you want to make up for by exerting your power over men.
What makes you say that the problem is we want to exert our power over men what kind power ate you talking about
All I said that girls who are not tznius are unfortunately just having fun and enjoying the attention it brings us and that will change if we can see in our frum publications show us frum woman and girls dressing very tznius with pride that would be our role modelsSeptember 14, 2017 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1363847
I mean that you dress to attract men and tease them because it’s fun to be the one with the power over them. If nobody liked killing men, war wouldn’t have ever been invented.
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