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I learnt it is a machlokes between the Chofetz Chaim and the Chazon Ish. With the CC holding the requirements begin at age 3 and the CI holding it begins when she becomes distinguishable as a girl, which is no later than her 7th birthday. Does the Chareidish oilem generally pasken like the CC or the CI?
The Chazon Ish says that it’s whenever it’s normal for people to begin being attracted to her which, presumably, is a few years after 7 also.
Rav Wozner has a psak that says the latest in 7, based on the Chazon Ish.
Ders: I won’t discuss this issue. I will quote the Chazon Ish though, who says that it’s whatever age a person starts to have a Yetzer for a girl. You figure out what age that is on your own. I won’t give a number.
mermaid: We generally follow the Mishna Berura.
Sam2: You don’t have to give a number and I don’t have to figure it out on my own. There is a psak that gives the upper limit of the number, that I’ve cited above.
“I will quote the Chazon Ish though, who says that it’s whatever age a person starts to have a Yetzer for a girl.”
OTOH, I think that a girl has to learn a sense of tsinuit early (chinuch).
Maybe the different ages are based on different criteria.
from a chinuch perspective. the beis yackov (type) school my daughter goes to requires the girls to wear appropriate sleeve length after pesach of the pre-1a year. this is when most girls are between 5 and 6. it is to get them used to wearing appropriate sleeve lengths when they must (so says the school letter home). what the actual halacha is, i dont know, but clearly this school does not believe it is 3.
can someone provide a source for the “chofetz chaim”?
tx
Apusht: It’s in the Mishnah B’rurah in the Siman on this. Somewhere 65-74, I think.
Tx for the source
If you generally follow Mishna Brura for psak, this should be followed too.
Lubavitch holds at 3. I know some beis Yaakov families who go according to what the school requires, as a previous poster posted. There are people who hold even younger than 3??
Sam2: “Somewhere 65-74.” At first I thought you were giving ages! LOL.
Mermaid: That’s very hard to say. It’s one thing to hold that for Krias Shma and Devarim Shebikdusha a person can’t see the arms, legs, etc. of a 3-year old. It’s very, very tough (and disturbing) to say that we think a significant portion of the male population will have Ta’avos for her if they see a 3-year-old with her arms and legs uncovered, which is what forcing her to always be Tznius would mean.
When my daughter was born, I had the doctor slap her because she wasn’t dressed in a tznius fashion as befits a bas yisroel.
The Wolf
Wolf, I think that’s probably your best line I’ve read so far. ROTFL!!!
Seriously, though, some people consider it time for girls to be tznius (whatever their guidelines are for that) at the age of chinuch, so they don’t start until around 6 or 7.
I know that here in Yerushalayim, among the natives it is much more common to start at age 3. I bought my daughter new dresses (to replace her short-sleeved ones) and tights to wear for her third birthday and made it a little more celebratory than looking at like a punishment or hard or difficult or anything like that. It’s definitely easier once they’re young to keep going in the same way, but it definitely depends on their personality. I have one daughter who insisted on wearing socks above her knees at a certain age rather than tights. I was hesitant only due to my concern for how she would be pulling them up during the day. I was right, she has been seen to pull them up while showing her knees and all. She doesn’t do it in front of everybody but there’s definitely room for improvement.
Wolf,
Excellent chinuch. I am sure you follow through an berate her for not being a bas talmid chochom.
Mermaid: No. The Mishnah B’rurah says that you cannot say D’varim Shebikdusha when you can see a 3-year-old not dressed properly. That is fine, and I would be very hesitant to tell someone to hold like even the Chazon Ish against the Mishnah B’rurah in this. However, that is not the same as saying that a 3-year-old must be dressed Tzniusly at all times, as I explained above.
In the Dershu Mishnah B’rurah it states that even the Chazon Ish agrees that the age of Chinuch is 3 and when he said 7 it was in regard to the Din of Ervah only!
mordern: That doesn’t make sense. Lich’ora there shouldn’t be a Mitzvah of Chinuch on Tznius. I think the general assumption is like the Minchas Chinuch and those Achronim who point out that the only Chiyuvim on which Chinuch is Shayach are those that become Chiyuvim at Bar/Bas Mitzvah. Since a girl has a Chiyuv of Tznius before that time (because a girl 11 or younger could be attractive to teenage boys in an inappropriate way) then there shouldn’t be a Chiyuv of Chinuch on it.
Hey, mordern, welcome back! Please don’t bump any more old threads.
does it not go by height? over 3 inches i presume
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