January 21, 2011 10:35 am at 10:35 am #730987dave1Member
HEllo again to all my friends that have absolutlly nothing todo with there lives all day first off if your a yeshiva bochor and your commenting on this issue YOU SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING!! keep your head in your gemora and not on the girls. If your married you should not be looking either you have a wife to look at and worry about. But seriously if you are a yeshiva bochor and your sitting in here make stupid comments you should find somthing better to do on your spare time cause nothing is worse than loshen hara or motzie shem rahJanuary 21, 2011 11:44 am at 11:44 am #730988yeshivaguy1Participant
The end of the joke goes like this
The girl reaches into her bag and pulls out another apple and hands it to the guy, “Here take this apple because when adam ate the apple he found out that he needs to work for a living.”
funny thing, my cousin in seminary only heard the first part.January 21, 2011 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #730989
Oomis, the standards do not go by what people think or do. You can not walk around inapproprietly dressed and be considered tsniusdic. What if in a certain place they decide that it is not wrong to steal?
What if somebody’s zeides were off the derech and did not keep Shabbos? You can’t call them mechallelei Shabbos? Come on. Call a spade a spade. Do not condone avieros of yesteryear or of today!January 21, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #730990TheGoqParticipant
I’m seeing alot of knee jerk reactions hereJanuary 21, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #730991jewish and working 22Member
“Oomis, the standards do not go by what people think or do.”
Actually, the standards DO go by what people think or do, or at least think. Look throughout the ages (and i am not just limiting the time to 50 years ago), you will see the standards of dress change throughout the generations, and therefore the standards of Tznius as well.
2,000 years ago, men wore robes and noone (men or women) wore any underwear. Do you think that these standards will work today? Would a man or women walk down the street only clad in a robe and nothing else? I don’t think so.
The way people have dressed has changed over the millenia, and therefore, our thoughts of Tznius have changed as well.January 21, 2011 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #730992
From Tznius book:
“All women and girls must cover all parts of their body which Chazal have classified as Ervah. These parts include: the main body (torso), including the hip area; the upper arms, including the elbows; and the upper legs, including the thighs and knees. Their status of Ervah has been established by Chazal and is not dependent on the custom of the local women. . .
The hair of a married woman must be covered with non-see-through material (Kesubos 72).”
If people didn’t do so years ago or don’t do so now because they didn’t know or don’t know that they were or are supposed to do so; no one is judging them, but that doesn’t make it alright to do.
There is no such thing as “Tznius-dig by the accepted standards of TODAY.” There is only Tznius-dig by the standards of the Torah and Chazal.
If someone didn’t keep Shabbos years ago because he was told that he would lose his job on Monday if he didn’t come to work on Shabbos; we don’t judge him, because we’re not “in his shoes.” But the action is still Chillul Shabbos.January 21, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #730993apushatayidParticipant
MDD. Dont get outraged. Do something about it. Dont talk about your outrage, thats nothing more than outrageous. That is not what “arvus” is about. Dont believe me, ask your Rav/Rebbe.January 21, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #730994
Jewish and working 22, your example does not touch upon the bottom-line Tsnius standards — me’ikar ha’din it’s ok. Covering the toes depends on minhag ha’mokom.January 21, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #730995rabbiofberlinParticipant
mdd and others: I feel sad when soemone does not follow the Torah, I do not feel outrage because if I feel so, I could not relate to this person and try to make him better. Do you think the barditchever, R’nachman mebreslev, the lubavitcher rebbe and so many others felt “outrage’ at other jews? Did you ever see ,in writing, any thing from all of these gedolim that would disparage other jews? Or did they just settle down and work at making these other jews better? I know where my choice lies.January 21, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #730996
According to Halacha, the women’s knees should be covered, that includes when she walks or sits down.
Aside of Rabbi Falks sefer Modesty-An adornment of life(Oz Hadar Levusha) there are organizations as Bnos Melochim which one can call and have their questions answered.
Another issue here is because of openess to the non-Jewish world both audio and visual, some men who are so pulled to the attributes will demand or tell their wives how to dress. Some women do it for Shalom Bayis, unfortunately.
Kindly don’t start attacking me as i B”H am not nogaiya b’duvar. We have children and grandchildren who we are proud of.
Last winter my daughter in law hosted Ateret in her home every Friday night after candle lighting. This is a program for girls to introduce them to the laws of tznius when young. It is done in a fun and enjoying mode.
If my kneehighs will roll down, my 3 year old grandaughter will comment “Babi, you are not tziusdik”. In our family too, the fathers are very makpid on the boys with tznius.
So aside with us women being careful, tznius applies to all of Am Yisroel!
Chazak and Good Shabbos to all.
P.S. Some neighborhood stores that sell women’s apparel have the halachos of tznius posted.January 21, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #730997
Rabbiofberlin, I can not tell you about the Berditchever or the Lubavitcher, but there are numerous sources for this from TaNaCh and Chazal and later Gedolim. Just look in sefer Tehillim to start with.January 21, 2011 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #730998
There is no such thing as “Tznius-dig by the accepted standards of TODAY.” There is only Tznius-dig by the standards of the Torah and Chazal”
So do you think the Rabbonim of that time did not know about those standards then? Regardless of what you think, for those years, most non-chassidish frum women dressed a little differently than they do today, and I guarantee you every one of them would faint if she thought you were calling her immodest. When you call someone untzniusdig, you are making an extremely megative judgment about her character. Those women were nashim tzidkonios, most of them, and no one should be maligning them because they wore short sleeves or yes, even pants. There is a big difference between not dressed according to understood and accepted standards, and outright being untzniusdig. It seems to be a very difficult concept for some of you to chaap, though.
And I personally hold by the standard that expects a long enough skirt and sleeves and covered hair at all times, even in my house, btw when I am alone. But my mother O”H, one of the MOST eidel and balabatish frum women I have ever known, did not dress that way, until the last few years of her life. Very few frum women who grew up during WWII in the USA did. You impugn several generations of outstanding women, and it is not the right thing to do, as a Monday morning quarterback.January 21, 2011 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #730999
I think that when it comes to this issue, that people (primarily those who are of the present generation of young people, who have been brought up with a different hashkafic mindset than the older members of the CR) will be unable to see the other side of the coin. That’s fine. But it also underscores why nowadays kiruv is so difficult and why it should only be handled by open-minded, secure, frum people who can help people find their religious way, without making them feel that they are “terrible” because they lived another way.January 23, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #731001rabbiofberlinParticipant
oomis1105- thank you for your comments- I could not have said it any better…..January 23, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #731002
ROB – coming from you, I feel complimented.January 23, 2011 1:40 am at 1:40 am #731003
Oomis, the Rabbonim of that dor knew that rebuke would be useless, and mutav they should be shogegos ve’lo mezidos.
A piece of chazir is a piece of chazir. It is an Orthodox website — the Laws of the Torah do not change. Even if it reflects badly on your relatives.
And about kiruv, I am Ba’al Teshuva.January 23, 2011 1:42 am at 1:42 am #731004
And doing teshuva entails feeling bad about one’s aveiros.January 23, 2011 4:16 am at 4:16 am #731005Smile E. FaceMember
k, not trying to be disrespectful in any way to anybody, and if it comes out that way, i apologize.
First, quoting things to most girls is NOT going to work. It might work for those who are “basically tznius” or looking to improve, but those who are comfortable are not interested.
Second, tznius in action, as oomis pointed out, is largely overlooked. Living oot, I have a lot of friends from a variety of backgrounds. As such, some dress more tzniusly than others at this point in their lives, but they are all good girls, alway running to do chessed, always looking for more ways to grow in Yiddeshkeit, ohavei Hashem, etc. And then i have friends who dress tzniusly, and look the part, and yet, the way they act… Screaming in the street, walking in a certain way in front of boys, you get the idea. I’m not saying the first group is right, or the second group is awful, and i’m not saying everybody fits into these categories. C”V!
Third, go into almost any highschool, and ask what the most dreaded speeches are… don’t be too shocked at the answer… they get annoying after a while, and we tend to tune them out.
this is just a random side point-short uniform skirts didn’t start in any one specific school. As long as there are rules, there will be girls trying to break them, and in my school girls have been cutting their skirts shorter for years… or wearing them too long…
Fourth-this is directed to any male who commented/wanted to comment: the same way learning torah is your mitzvah, tznius is our mitzvah. the same way i can’t understand how you have a yetzer hara not to learn, you can’t understand the yetzer hara not to dress tzniusly
For those who tznius isn’t a problem for-good for you! but some people are still struggling. Everyone has his/her struggles, and while tznius is very important, it may come harder for some than for others. People are coming from different places, and maybe they wore the tight skirt, but they didn’t wear the tight shirt. One thing at a time…. 🙂January 23, 2011 4:23 am at 4:23 am #731006mw13Participant
“When you call someone untzniusdig, you are making an extremely megative judgment about her character. Those women were nashim tzidkonios, most of them, and no one should be maligning them because they wore short sleeves or yes, even pants.”
This has nothing to do with judging people or people’s character. This has to do with what the halacha says we must do. The halacha says that women must cover above their elbows – therefore, anybody with that area uncovered is in clear violation of the halacha. They could be the nicest people in the world, they could be covering what they are covering with great mesiras nefesh, they could not know any better. But at the end of the day, what they’re doing (or what they did) is still wrong. Period.
“There is a big difference between not dressed according to understood and accepted standards, and outright being untzniusdig.”
Perhaps there is – but not covering parts of the body that the halacha states must be covered is being “outright untzniusdig”, with no two ways about it. Unintentionaly being outright untznisdig, perhaps; but being outright untznisdig nonetheless.January 23, 2011 8:49 am at 8:49 am #731007
I guess that I had better not mention the laws of Kashrus or keeping Shabbos; because if I do, then I’m denigrating every Jew who doesn’t keep them, right?
Dealing with the issue of what Halacha allows and doesn’t allow has nothing to do with judging specific people or their character, whether they’re nice or not nice.
If a woman unknowingly reveals a part of the body that is supposed to be covered, or if she wears a garment that she’s not supposed to wear (even if she doesn’t know that she’s not supposed to wear it), like shorts or pants or a too-tight outfit; then according to the Halacha, she is in violation of Tznius, no matter how nice a person she is.
An “Isha Tzadekes” is someone who keeps ALL of the Mitzvos that a woman is supposed to keep, including Good Middos AND Tznius.
For example, if a Jew was raised without a Jewish upbringing and is a kind person, but he violates the Halacha of Shabbos; is he a Tzadik?January 24, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #731010
“A piece of chazir is a piece of chazir. It is an Orthodox website — the Laws of the Torah do not change. Even if it reflects badly on your relatives.”
But a piece of chazir was NEVER muttar by ANYONE’S standards. EVER. And kindly do not tell me what reflects on my relatives.
“And about kiruv, I am Ba’al Teshuva”
I married a B”T, and your last statement explains a lot about your previous posts. Do you think because you are a B”T that you know how to be mekareiv others? That’s like saying I can shecht meat because I love to eat it. Both statements “could” potentially be factual, but not based on the first half of each statement.January 24, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #731012
Rabbiofberlin, this not the place to mefalpel in well-known shailos which have already been paskened and for trying to disprove Modern Rabbis with the newly-found shvere heteirim. Just to start with — go learn Kesubos 72.
I am not going (eventhough I am capable of it) to start going through the whole sugya here, a well-known sugya which has been paskened on already.
And I take issue with shvere right-wing sachen(zachen) also.January 24, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #731014
I am a great am ha’aretz. But again ,this not the place for a full review of the sugya.
You, meanwhile, just, please, go and learn Kesubos 72 with Rashi, to start with.January 24, 2011 5:40 am at 5:40 am #731017
“You seem to imply that wearing pants is not allowed. WRONG. Check the Bach and other Poskim.”
If you would please give me the exact quotes of “the Bach and the other Poskim,” which say that women are allowed to wear pants, I would appreciate it.January 24, 2011 6:16 am at 6:16 am #731018truth be toldMember
rabbiofberlin: That was uncalled for. Kindly, please, take the rabbi out of your moniker. Thank you. Or simply be kinder
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