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  • #2358923
    jmn
    Participant

    I really should not be writing here, but this is something that has been bothering me for as long as I can remember, and I have never gotten a straight answer from my rabbeim and parents. So, I guess I’m writing here and hoping someone can answer me.

    We all know about the great dangers of technology. Many call it the nisayon of the dor. Having been in yeshiva my whole life and coming from a very extreme yeshivish home, this has obviously been something spoken about constantly. Both my parents have flip phones, and a computer was never allowed in the house. We were even very strict about DVDs.

    Here is my real problem: The flip phones of today are getting more and more advanced, with the capability to do a lot more than they used to. My parents would allow me to use a flip phone with some apps, but to get a rectangle-shaped phone with those same apps and a strong internet block is forbidden. To take it even further, when my sister needed WhatsApp for her job, getting a smartphone was not an option for my parents, but they did settle for a CAT phone, which, unlike the other flip phones, is a real smartphone just in a durable flip format.

    Now, when I want to use a rectangle-shaped phone with specific apps that would be okay on the flip phone and with a strong block, I am being told “no.” At this point, they don’t even have the excuse that we don’t let smartphones in the house because we did allow the CAT phone.

    The million-dollar question is: Why does the flip format make it kosher? If the content I am using would be okay on a flip phone, why is the rectangle-shaped phone not allowed? I have never gotten a straight answer to this! All I get is people yelling at me, or my father telling me, “I can’t explain it now. Smartphones are bad…” You might say it has to do with wasting time, but that doesn’t really answer what is wrong with it.

    To make it even worse, part of what my father is scared of is Grandma’s reaction. He believes Grandma would not like it if I had a smartphone. What I don’t understand is that Grandma has an unfiltered tablet and smartphone, and she doesn’t even work. So why should she care that I have a strongly filtered device? She has it for no reason, so why can’t I have it?

    Can someone please help me out here?

    #2359693
    Happy new year
    Participant

    It’s like asking why a button down colored shirt is different than a white shirt (even a white polo shirt).

    Society, ANY society, automatically labels people based on externals.
    And, believe it or not, you label YOURSELF based on externals.

    The way you dress, look, phone shape etc…. has an automatic effect on the “class” that people (and, more importantly, YOU) view you.

    Once you are a “smartphone” person, you start associating with, and acting like, that “type” of person.

    Same thing with clothing. Etc….

    I’ve seen this fist hand and it’s a FACT!

    #2359695

    maybe you can have a discussion with your parents and come to a compromise.

    One suggestion – do you need a phone or any internet-connected device. I understand that some parnosos take require a phone – an uber drive, hgatzola, lhavdil, drug dealer. Otherwise, you can have a full computer with a big screen in a living room, turned towards the public so that everyone can see what is on the screen. That could solve a lot of concerns they have. You can have whatsapp on the computer also. And show that you are responsible individual otherwise.

    #2359912
    Lav Davka
    Participant

    You asked: “The million-dollar question is: Why does the flip format make it kosher? If the content I am using would be okay on a flip phone, why is the rectangle-shaped phone not allowed”?

    Answer:

    The negative effects of a smartphone (especially on teens who’s brains are developing rapidly) is much more about the device than about the content being accessed. Smartphones are from the most addictive substances that exist today and is much more dangerous than the actual negative content.

    For example, I was recently talking to someone who is on the board of a high school in a modern community in which all the parents have internet and smartphones. He told me that due to the extreme negative impact the smartphones were having on the students, the school enacted a strict ban on smartphones (including the girl school), often against the will of the parents. He told me that in his experience it is very unlikely for a teen with a smartphone (even if they only use it for Kosher content) to grow up frum, let alone a Ben Torah. He said that in that school they do not monitor the flip phones if they are filtered, and they are understanding if a student did not withhold a nisayon with a flip phone. They feel that the negative impact of smartphones, even filtered, are worse than unfiltered flip phones).

    Here is another example: There are unlimited members of our community addicted to WhatsApp statuses to one degree or another. (The younger the person is, the more the negative effects of this addiction). This addiction is far less common by those who access WhatsApp on a tablet only, and it doesn’t exist by those who access it on a flip phone.

    Even the non Yidishe world who allow their kids unlimited internet access are talking about banning smartphones for school age children and teens.

    It is a shame that as you write “All I get is people yelling at me…I can’t explain it now. Smartphones are bad”, sometimes such an approach has the opposite effect, and this is something that is easily explainable.

    #2360147

    As someone who has always been a flip-phone user and a major advocate of davka using flip phones and being anti-smart phones, it pains me to say this: it’s just purely an arbitrary social norm at this point.

    If true flip phones were still commercially available then this wouldn’t be the case. There would be real arguments for flip phones, which are still the arguments people are making despite being outdated. The only currently available flip phones are smart phones. Yes, you can have stuff done to them by frum organizations to dumb them down, but you can also do that with touch-screen phones.

    The Cat phone is a great example because not only is it a smart phone, but it’s a straight up touchscreen! It just has a numpad hanging off of it for no reason.

    Unfortunately, I would guess that the future will not see a revolution of true flip phones coming back. More likely, people will either conclude that it’s pointless to have a flip phone if it’s a smart phone anyway and just get regular smart phones, or people will double down harder on the flip-phone-cultural-status thing you’ve observed. I genuinely have no idea what I’ll do when my current flip phone kicks the bucket. I hate pointless social norms, but I really really hate touchscreens…

    #2360161
    ard
    Participant

    how does colored shirts affect the person negatively? actually the reason cc wears colored shirts is to not be affected by a white shirt

    #2360561
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    NC: The CAT is a smartphone that flips. There are still flip phones, which although do need filtering, aren’t smartphones.

    Ard, how do white shirts affect the person negatively?

    #2360562
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    JMN, I think Lav Davka answered your question very well.

    #2360654
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    “Can someone please help me out here?”

    No

    #2360888

    Lav > He told me that in his experience it is very unlikely for a teen with a smartphone (even if they only use it for Kosher content) to grow up frum, let alone a Ben Torah.

    I am ok with not using smartphones, but, in the interest of Emes, this statement is only partially true. It is quite possible to raise Torah-loving children with phones provided they are surrounded by parents and schools that teach and monitor kids appropriately. What this menahel is saying that within his framework, where defence of Torah is primarily by building siyagim, then the smartphone is a breach that he does not know how to repair.

    Just do a thought experiment: would it hurt a kid, if a kid will be using a computer only together with his thoughtful parent to access Torah resources; math quizzes; communications with Savta; buying tzanua clothes on Amazon? Obviously not. So, probably deviating somewhat from that ideal will also not hurt them too much. Just find the right dosage for a particular kid.

    #2360897
    ard
    Participant

    daasyochid- its complicated and not even such a shtark hashkafa even within cc but the basic idea is it causes complacency among other reasons

    #2360898
    ard
    Participant

    jmn- this is a terrible place to ask a question like that, there are many, many people on this platform with extremely twisted hashkafas, find a real real rebbi and get a real answer

    #2361311
    @fakenews
    Participant

    Just an observation: by keeping such a rigid view as the baseline, you keep the Overton window in the direction of said view.
    So, in this case, the baseline is a smartphone with a tiny screen and a filter. The other side of the Overton window is you demanding a filtered/blocked smartphone.
    If the conversation started with a filtered/blocked smartphone, you would be pushing back on what filter or how it’s blocked.
    Whether this is the best chinuch model for you is an entirely different conversation that I will not participate in.

    #2361329
    philosopher
    Participant

    @fakenews, i totally agree with your assessment

    #2361349

    “There are still flip phones, which although do need filtering, aren’t smartphones.”
    If they were true flip phones, they wouldn’t need filtering. If they access the web, then they’re on the level on old school smart phones like Blackberries, which would have been around the time when the frum world initially started paying attention. Just because they’re relatively less smart than the smartest phones of today shouldn’t matter from a Torah-perspective.

    “I think Lav Davka answered your question very well.”
    He/she gave a good answer for not having smart phones, but that wasn’t the question. The question was why are smart flip phones considered holier than regular touch-screen smart phones? Remember, the OP was the first one to bring up the CAT phone. Your familiarity with it shows that you’ve also probably come across people in the frum world who use it.

    Fakenews:
    The overton window refers to the most “middle ground” spectrum of views that are tolerated by the masses. I don’t see how it applies here. The OP is wondering what the nafka mina is between a regular smart phone and a flip phone that can do basically all the same stuff. Nothing he said suggested he sees his upbringing as the middle ground; it could be that he thinks it was extremely machmir, but it should still make cohesive sense, which it seems it does not.

    “but the basic idea is it causes complacency among other reasons”
    The derech goes back to Slobodka to purposely take meikel positions on certain things in order to avoid bal gaavah, doesn’t it? I heard they b’shittah avoid having mikvas on their yeshiva grounds for this reason. The colored shirts should probably be the least controversial example, yet instead it’s the one people talk about the most.

    To be fair, however, if you’re now going full 180 and saying white shirts negatively affect people, therefore there’s a maalah in colored shirts, then your colored shirt is actually causing you to have more gaavah than a white one would and serving the opposite of its purpose.

    #2361372
    ard
    Participant

    its not exactly gaavah, its that you think youre already a someone because you wear a white shirt and more is not necessary, again its disputed even in cc and some branches require them

    #2361625
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    jmn,

    “The million-dollar question is: Why does the flip format make it kosher? If the content I am using would be okay on a flip phone, why is the rectangle-shaped phone not allowed? I have never gotten a straight answer to this! All I get is people yelling at me, or my father telling me, “I can’t explain it now. Smartphones are bad…” You might say it has to do with wasting time, but that doesn’t really answer what is wrong with it.”

    Most phones come in four form factors:
    1. Flip phones – physical number pad, small display that flips closed over the number pad on a hinge
    2. Candy bar – physical number pad, very small display. This form factor was prevalent in the early 2000s before flip phones. These phones were usually extremely durable
    3. Physical QWERTY keyboard phones, could slide out from or be underneath the display, like Blackberries. This form factor is almost nonexistent today
    4. The glass slab touchscreen phone – the most common form factor today

    Any phones with these form factors could theoretically run a full version of Android with apps and therefore be a “smart” phone. So the form factor itself doesn’t make a phone kosher. Perhaps the reason your parents avoid the glass slab form factor is that it is, by design, more drawing to one’s attention. Perhaps they are also concerned about maris ayin.

    #2361629
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville Chaimberlin lo mes,

    “If true flip phones were still commercially available then this wouldn’t be the case. There would be real arguments for flip phones, which are still the arguments people are making despite being outdated. The only currently available flip phones are smart phones. Yes, you can have stuff done to them by frum organizations to dumb them down, but you can also do that with touch-screen phones.”

    This is not so. Check out Sunbeam Wireless, for a flip phone example. The Greentouch store offers a candy bar kosher phone (Mindphone), and there are other niche options from companies such as Mudita. These phones are significantly more expensive than the $20 burner flip phones you can get that come with a browser, but they are “true” flip phones by your definition. There are other options out there such as the Light Phone II (an e-ink touchscreen phone), but these are more of a concern because smart apps can be sideloaded onto them.

    #2361631
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your familiarity with it shows that you’ve also probably come across people in the frum world who use it.

    Actually I saw that it can be used with Android Auto so suggested it to someone for that purpose, and they responded that everyone knows that the CAT phone is a smartphone.

    I reject the notion that regular flip phones (e.g. Orbic Journey) are the same as full size smartphones.

    They definitely don’t function as well or easily, making use of them for anything other than basic calling and texting cumbersome and unappealing. This makes it much less likely for someone to get hooked on it like you see with smartphones.

    When they’re TAGged (or similar) they’re pretty much the same as the old flip phones.

    Most people with smartphones, even filtered, use them for much more than just calling and texting. That’s the reality.

    #2361633
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To be fair, however, if you’re now going full 180 and saying white shirts negatively affect people, therefore there’s a maalah in colored shirts, then your colored shirt is actually causing you to have more gaavah than a white one would and serving the opposite of its purpose.

    This is a good point, and then they don’t even get the maaleh of a white shirt! (The association with the oilam hayehivos)

    #2361648
    eddiee
    Participant

    Not getting invoved in this loaded discussin, but just responing to the statement that true flipphones don’t exist anymore. Verizon has 2 models that do not need to be filtered. They have no browser at all, no email capabilities, etc. They are just talk and text. This is assuming that you don’t mind texting. They are the Orbic Journy L Voice and Text Only ( there are 2 versions) and TCL Flip 3 Voice and text only.

    #2361667

    “They definitely don’t function as well or easily, making use of them for anything other than basic calling and texting cumbersome and unappealing.”
    I personally would get accomplish a lot more bittul Torah on a smart flip phone than I would on a touch screen since I’m totally hapless with touch screens. For the general case, I guess the question now is: is the problem that it’s possible to do these bad things with your phone, or is the problem that it’s EASY to do them. If the former, then the OP is right that it makes no difference. You seem to be arguing for the latter.

    “Most people with smartphones, even filtered, use them for much more than just calling and texting. That’s the reality.”
    This is true, but there’s really no reason that it needs to be true. Once we reach the point where flip phones cost more (if we haven’t already), wouldn’t it just make more sense to just use a smart phone base and filter down to northing outside of calling and texting? Also, whatever happened to just not having a data plan? Is that not a thing anymore?

    #2361741

    Neville > The derech goes back to Slobodka

    I was thinking recently about Slabodka having respectful clothing for their poor students to bolster their self esteem and how it relates to current situation, where (in my humble opinion) the dress often leads to underserved gaavah. There are two changes between Slabodka and now:

    1) those students were mostly genuinely poor and the clothes hopefully took their self esteem from low to average. now sometimes clothes look more exclusive than others in the community and students are not necessarily poor

    2) Slabodka was heavy on mussar. There are lots of stories about Alter miSlabodka on how he checked his own character, such as: when he did not want to go greet a certain visitor, he walked to the hotel, and then thought a little, and went back home. He wanted to make sure that he is not justifying his decision by simple laziness or desire to save time. A lot of people now who dress Slabodka-way are engaging in self-serving behaviors, finding the derech that just happens to be comfortable for themselves in totally non-Slabodka way.

    #2361746

    Neville> To be fair, however, if you’re now going full 180 and saying white shirts negatively affect people, therefore there’s a maalah in colored shirts, then your colored shirt is actually causing you to have more gaavah than a white one would and serving the opposite of its purpose.

    Daas> This is a good point, and then they don’t even get the maaleh of a white shirt! (The association with the oilam hayehivos)

    Both good points 🙂 The answer is in my previous post – it seems that you can’t wear anything or make any decision that is correct because it shows gaavah. This is unless you engage in mussar that leads you to have the right attitude. Conclusion: if you don’t learn mussar, you can’t wear any shirt.

    #2361793
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This is true, but there’s really no reason that it needs to be true.

    It’s human nature

    #2361984
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,

    “I personally would get accomplish a lot more bittul Torah on a smart flip phone than I would on a touch screen since I’m totally hapless with touch screens.”

    You may be an exception here. The slab touchscreen interface is extremely intuitive. Babies and toddlers can pick it up in a flash, and most people easily adopt it within a day or two. Many people who are switching to flip/small screen/physical keypad phones for non-religious reasons are doing so in order to curb an addiction to smartphones and reduce screen time. The smartphone interface itself is designed to draw people in.

    “For the general case, I guess the question now is: is the problem that it’s possible to do these bad things with your phone, or is the problem that it’s EASY to do them. If the former, then the OP is right that it makes no difference. You seem to be arguing for the latter.”

    These are not mutually exclusive. A phone that is capable of accessing the unfiltered internet is not a “kosher” phone, no matter the form factor. But even among kosher phones, some may argue that the glass slab touchscreen smartphone interface is more problematic than a candy bar or flip phone interface, because the former is more addicting.

    ““(DY: Most people with smartphones, even filtered, use them for much more than just calling and texting. That’s the reality.”) This is true, but there’s really no reason that it needs to be true.”

    In theory, but Google, Samsung, Apple, and app developers make little profit if people only call and text on a smartphone, so the smartphone is designed for running apps, consuming content, and shopping. To limit its usage is like digging uphill. If someone were a brand new BT with a huge craving for Big Macs, we certainly wouldn’t tell him that it’s fine to go hungry into a McDonalds with its posters displaying delicious looking food and the smell of burgers and fries in the air to only use the restroom. But for some reason that wisdom flies out the window when the topic is smartphones.

    “Once we reach the point where flip phones cost more (if we haven’t already), wouldn’t it just make more sense to just use a smart phone base and filter down to northing outside of calling and texting? Also, whatever happened to just not having a data plan? Is that not a thing anymore?”

    Flip phones, etc are for a niche market and not scaled up for mass production, so they are fairly expensive, other than $20 burner phones like Trac phones that have a basic Web browser. Most that I’ve perused seem to fall in the $100-$400 range, which is in line with used or entry level smartphones. More premium smartphones live in the $500-$1500 range easily. Many people buying smartphones don’t realize this cost, because cell phone companies often subsidize or finance the smartphone purchase in exchange for the customer signing up for a 2-year data plan.

    As far as filtering a smartphone down, as Chaim87 in another thread with me argued, there is usually a cost to do that with a filter or an organization like TAG that installs the filter for you. And if you go the free DIY route, using something like Google Family Link, ADB, Android debloater, custom ROMs, etc., most of these solutions can be reversed, which defeats the purpose for many.

    Not having a data plan would make most apps non-functional only when not connected to a Wi-Fi network. Walk into a Starbucks and connect to their network, and you have a fully functional smartphone in your hands.

    #2362586

    “I was thinking recently about Slabodka having respectful clothing for their poor students to bolster their self esteem”
    On the contrary, they purposely wear less respectable clothing to diminish their self-esteem and avoid gaavah or “complacency” as the other poster put it. My point was that if they’ve created a sub-culture in which colored shirts are actually MORE respectable than white shirts (as it is all subjective afterall), then they’ve gone full circle and defeated the original purpose.

    “It’s human nature”
    It’s human nature to not filter a touchscreen phone, but it is within human nature to filter a flip phone? I don’t buy this one. It’s human nature to do assur things on the internet. The whole point of filtering is to not leave things up to human nature.

    “You may be an exception here”
    I’m for sure the exception here. I’m young enough to be skilled at numpad texting and old enough to be terrible with touch screens. That’s a very narrow age bracket.

    “To limit its usage is like digging uphill.”
    This is always true of filtering. We aren’t filtering to optimize the capabilities of the phone, quite the opposite. Your contention seems to be that it’s illogical to buy a state of the art smart phone and filter the daylights out of it rather than just buying a slightly smart flip phone and accomplishing the same thing with only a little filtering, but unless you’re paying for the effort to filter it then this is a fallacy. I’m saying just buy the absolute cheapest phone on the market and filter it down to only being able to talk and text. In fact, I would contend that this was always the minhag and it just happened to be that flip phones were traditionally the cheapest. I think paying more for a flip phone that you’ll have to filter anyway instead of just filtering a touch screen down to talk and text for less money would be a minhag shtus. It does seem you’ve done the research and found that buying/filtering flip phones is still cheaper today, so that’s still an academic point.

    “Walk into a Starbucks and connect to their network, and you have a fully functional smartphone in your hands.”
    So then don’t connect to their network? I’m sorry, but at some point there has to be a level of personal responsibility. You could also just say “get rid of the filter and you have a fully functional smartphone in your hands.” Fully functional smart phones will always be available, it’s just about putting more steps in the way of accessing it.

    #2362866

    Novardok was into dressing poorly, Slabodka was into respectful dress, although not uniform, I believe. Similarly/later, Lublin provided respectful room & board.

    #2362946
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So then don’t connect to their network? I’m sorry, but at some point there has to be a level of personal responsibility. You could also just say “get rid of the filter and you have a fully functional smartphone in your hands.” Fully functional smart phones will always be available, it’s just about putting more steps in the way of accessing it.

    Sorry, you can’t compare the ability to buy a smartphone to having one and simply needing to connect with a wifi network.

    #2363090

    “Sorry, you can’t compare the ability to buy a smartphone to having one and simply needing to connect with a wifi network.”
    I didn’t, did I? I’m talking within people that already have smartphones. Or, alternatively, having a flip phone without a data plan if you’re worried about it technically having browser access. If your choshesh for people going to a public restaurant, connecting their flip phone to the wifi, and using it to look at inappropriate material in public, then you you’re living in the dark if you don’t think the same people wouldn’t get past the filters or go buy a new phone. With true smart phones, I do hear, since they’re basically mini-tablets and are more naturally connected to internet all the time.

    “Novardok was into dressing poorly, Slabodka was into respectful dress, although not uniform, I believe. Similarly/later, Lublin provided respectful room & board.”
    It could be that you’re historically correct, but we were really talking about how it pertains to contemporary yeshivos. Chofetz Chaim claims to be the spiritual successor to Slabodka, and they’re very much into going against the grain of what’s considered respectable dress in yeshivish circles. It’s not limited to cultural norms like that. From my understanding, they even go as far as to condone or encourage meikelus on halachic issues (eg. Chalov Yisroel, R”T tzeis, men’s mikvas).

    If my understanding is not based on incorrect information, then like I said earlier, the colored shirts should be the least controversial thing. I guess they would say that it being the issue people bring up so often proves their point in some capacity.

    #2363898
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,

    “In fact, I would contend that this was always the minhag and it just happened to be that flip phones were traditionally the cheapest. I think paying more for a flip phone that you’ll have to filter anyway instead of just filtering a touch screen down to talk and text for less money would be a minhag shtus. It does seem you’ve done the research and found that buying/filtering flip phones is still cheaper today, so that’s still an academic point.”

    This answers just one of my two points about the glass slab smartphone form factor vs a physical keypad/flip/small screen. My other point is about the allure and intuitiveness of the interface itself, which is a big factor even if the phone can only call and text. Texting with a numpad or a tiny touchscreen is a slower process than on a glass slab, which encourages different texting behavior. Young people in the early 2000s on Nokia candybars would text things like “how r u” or “call bk l8r”, whereas kids today on glass slabs are tapping out entire paragraphs to each other. And with MMS vs SMS, detailed pictures and videos can be shared in “texting” apps. Texting has replaced calling as the primary means of communication on a smart phone. And one kid in the group with access to Instagram can forward the Internet on to everyone else in this texting groups.

    “If your choshesh for people going to a public restaurant, connecting their flip phone to the wifi, and using it to look at inappropriate material in public, then you you’re living in the dark if you don’t think the same people wouldn’t get past the filters or go buy a new phone.”

    You’ve basically made my interface argument for me in this statement, so thanks! But the truth of human nature is that people will push the limits on what they have. Connect to a WiFi network standing outside the Starbucks, download content, walk away and look at it later. Yes, anyone can just go out and buy an unfiltered smartphone if they’re bent on consuming content, and there’s not much we can do about that. But like my BT in McDonalds example, what we’re “choshesh” for in this discussion is the in situ temptations that form the battleground for those actively fighting their yetzer hara, not those who have already surrendered to it.

    #2364126

    “But like my BT in McDonalds example, what we’re “choshesh” for in this discussion is the in situ temptations that form the battleground for those actively fighting their yetzer hara, not those who have already surrendered to it.”

    Someone who seeks out a public wifi, downloads stuff, then looks at it later has already surrendered to his yetzer hara. He has nobody to blame but himself at that point, not his phone. That’s way too many steps to still blame the phone.

    #2364444
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,

    “Someone who seeks out a public wifi, downloads stuff, then looks at it later has already surrendered to his yetzer hara. He has nobody to blame but himself at that point, not his phone. That’s way too many steps to still blame the phone.”

    I don’t think you are being realistic about the nature of temptation. If a device has a capability to do something, there will be times when a temptation exists to use that capability.

    Your original argument posited that there was no difference between a glass slab touchscreen and a flip phone, so long as their functionality was the same, and thus the community’s preference for flip phones is a “minhag shtus” if a glass slab was cheaper. My contention is that the flip form factor is an additional “step” – as you put it – to guard against phone addiction or inappropriate usage, and maybe that’s why the form factor is preferred by segments of our community, including the OP’s parents. I made two points to support my contention: 1. the interface of a glass slab touchscreen is designed to promote more usage (yourself excepted), and 2. Extensive filtering and restricting of a device to remove most of what it was designed to do is likely to be a less successful solution than getting a device that was designed to do only a few functions and needs little to no filtering.

    I’m struggling to understand your objection to these two points (setting aside the pricing argument) beyond your first statement that you personally find a touchscreen slab hard to use. Some of your arguments seem to echo the anti-filtering MO viewpoint of “smartphones are fine and people should just behave themselves”. But you seem to be pro filtering, and understand its necessity as a guardrail in our ruchniyus to at least some degree. So what exactly are you disagreeing with at this juncture?

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