October 30, 2008 1:15 am at 1:15 am #588471sarah yarokMember
I have seen little about the candidates for whom Lakewood residents will vote, and I would like to hear some honest opnions.
I had occasion to go to Brick twice this week, along Route 70 and Brick Boulevard, and I found the traffic horrendous. Remember, most NJ residents don’t want to live in NYC, but evidently the planners in Brick didn’t think about this when they allowed the growth of shopping malls and developments.
I really hope this does not happen to Lakewood, which was once a small town with a small nucleus of bnei Torah. Now it has grown so much, and I’d like to konw which candidates will try to control the rampant growth from ruining the town.
Does anyone have information about whether the developers who have benefited from this growth are working hard to build and support enough schools to accomodate all the families moving in?
Of course new shopping areas are being developed, this is profitable and hopefully it will spread out the shopping around town so you don’t have to sit in traffic on Clifton for half of your Friday afternoon.
However, again, as a town grows careful planning become more and more important.
Anyone have any facts to contribute?October 30, 2008 3:00 am at 3:00 am #623462
It already has happened in lakewood. It takes me 20 minutes to drive from Kimball hospital to shoprite on a workday. The population in 2000 was 36,000. Now it is over 70,000 people. I’d much rather deal with the brick drivers than Lakewood drivers.October 30, 2008 3:16 am at 3:16 am #623463
zevi, r u fully shomer shabbos?October 30, 2008 3:16 am at 3:16 am #623464jO jOMember
It makes no difference……..the Vaad will state their wishes, and the community will follow like blind sheep…. 🙂October 30, 2008 3:48 am at 3:48 am #623465
The Vaad are the developers and the investors! When our block tried to stop an investor from renting to lowlives, a major askan contacted a neighbor and wanted to know what we were doing. Besides for the Yeshiva, one of the reasons many of us have settled in Lakewood is for the quiet suburban lifestyle. Now people come here and bring the city lifestyle with them. I used to breathe a sigh of relief when I came back to Lakewood from a visit to N.Y. No more traffic, no more tension, is what I used to say. But now…As long as they can build another ugly, congested complex and make mo $$ from taxes, all this uncontained and unplanned for growth will continue. Build the houses without having the infrastucture to make it livable.October 30, 2008 4:27 am at 4:27 am #623466must_hockParticipant
You’re gonna have to make up you mind, and your very unclear what you’re tying to say. Do you want frum people to move in or not? or is that too much congestion to see frum people around. If your suggesting to wided the roads, you should say that clearly. and what are you saying about school accomodations, what does that have to do with shopping mall congestion on rt 70?October 30, 2008 11:32 am at 11:32 am #623467
I think Mrs. Yarok stated clearly that as the town grows, planning becomes more important. We have to resign ouselves to the fact that growth is happening. The old, small town of Lakewood is gone. That’s always how things happen, B”H, with the KA”H growth of the frum community. But it has to be done carefully. They say that Boro Park used to be beautiful. Then when I grew up there in the sixties, they started chopping down old, beautiful homes and putting in their place ugly boxes that peopls admiringly called “the new houses”. They were ugly & built shoddily.Sound familiar, Lakewooders? This continued until we have the Boro Park of today- beautiful in frumkeit but asthetically horrible and much too crowded. Flatbush, on the other hand has strict zoning laws (which our community, by the way, hates) that have kept most of the area beautiful, despite the growth. Did anyone ever hear of urban planning? That’s what we need here in Lakewood. You can’t build a huge Westgate and leave the roads in the area virtually the same. That’s only one example of growth to brilng in more property taxes and profits, but no planning for the area around it.October 30, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #623468just4urinfoMember
monsey is experiencing the same problems. The Route 306 corridor is looking like BP & Wmsbrg where ppl live on top of each other. Certain so-called mosdos are planning on bldg developments for fictitious needs e.g. training 200 dayanim (ve hamyvin yavin)October 30, 2008 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #623469
there is nothing to do about it. have u ever heard of goverment thats not corrupt? everyone does whats best for themselves, and the developers are no different. if u were a developer u would turn the entire lakewood into westgate with parking spaces if u would be able to get away with it. the goverment also …. they somehow gain by promoting urban blight $?October 30, 2008 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #623470Give Me a BreakMember
Who are you and what are you doing to me?!October 30, 2008 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #623471
Give Me a Break: just realistic. what do u mean by “what are you doing to me?!” r u one of those corrupt gov. or an aspiring getto builder (lakewood developer)?October 30, 2008 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #623472
Why wouldnt i be Shomer Shabbos?October 31, 2008 12:32 am at 12:32 am #623473chalishMember
ONe thing is for sure, LakewoodBubby, Flatbush is not that beautiful!!!October 31, 2008 3:29 am at 3:29 am #623474
I dunno, u tell me why not. All I asked was a question. Why are you being coy about it as if u have something to hide? What does “Why wouldnt i be Shomer Shabbos?” supposed to mean? R u, or r u not fully shomer?October 31, 2008 6:44 am at 6:44 am #623475relaxedMember
how are we supposed to know who to vote for if the candidates don’t meet with the votersOctober 31, 2008 10:26 am at 10:26 am #623476
If I could step in here, I don’t think that zevi8 has anything to hide or is being “coy”, but rather, he is offended that you doubt his observance and would like to know what he wrote that caused you to think that he might not be shomer shabbos.
Is that right, zevi?
(And by the way, I don’t think that zevi’s observance level, or anyone else’s here, for that matter, has any bearing on the discussion.)November 2, 2008 1:44 am at 1:44 am #623477
jewishfeminst, ok so let zevi answer it.
So far zevi is avoiding a simple yes or no to the question if he is fully shomer.November 2, 2008 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #623478
What in the world happened to the initial topic about the Lakewood elections and the growth in Lakewood? I have absolutely no idea what the last few posts are talking about-was one post left out or something? In any case they are off topic. To the moderator–anybody home?November 2, 2008 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #623479
zevi?November 2, 2008 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #623480
While this has no bearing on the topic,the answer to your question is yes. I am Shomer Shabbos. I dont know why you had such a random question. I may not have the same outlook as alot of people but everyone cant be the same and that is what orthodoxy around here feels. If someone has a tv, wears jeans or if a woman wears pants or doesnt cover her hair, she is looked down upon and somehow deemed less religious. Who made up all these supposed halachas that women have to wear skirts and men have to wear black hats and white shirts? These are not halacha. There should not be an emphasis on them. Even covering hair is not halacha. Its taken from a passage in the torah that has nothing to do with halacha for covering hair. It was common for people to cover their hair in those times, doesnt mean its required and doesnt make someone a bad person if they dont. Men used to wear robes and things of that nature. Does that mean that men are required to wear robes? No. I know i got off topic, just rantingNovember 2, 2008 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #623481
What about using the internet on Shabbos? Is that also permissible? And is such person still “shomer shabbos”?November 2, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #623482
I would say that would be defined as not being allowed on shabbos.November 2, 2008 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #623483
By golly! Even if they parade around Lakewood in pants and uncovered hair? How judgmental of you!
Well guess what.
When you first posted in in this Torah based forum with your pure apikorsus, making up false sources (as others here have ably pointed out already) to support your krumkeit, I wrote you off as another meshugana who nebech needed an outlet for their anti-Torah ideologies, as some others are known to have come here and have done (and still do) prior to your arrival.
But then last week Motzei Shabbos Kodesh I noticed a rather peculiar thing. You made a post in the PETA thread on early Shabbos morning. About 10:30 Shabbos morning in Lakewood. Considering the anti-Torah gist of every comment you made here (which you demonstrably continue right here), there was a strong chashad you were a Mechallel Shabbos as well. This would confirm that. But I thought, heilige Shabbos. Its hard to imagine a Yid who professes to believe in the Torah being a Mechallel Shabbos Kodesh, a capital offense. So I thought maybe he is in Eretz Yisroel. But checking the zmanim in Eretz Yisroel clearly indicated that it was well within zman Shabbos in Eretz Yisroel, 10:30 AM N.Y. time, when you made the incriminating post. That left only the possibility that perhaps perhaps you were in the far east, like Japan or Australia. We still wanted to give you all the benefit of the doubt. But then with your own words when asked last week, you said you were in the US. (And in fact looking through your comment history, I notice you stated previously as well that you are in Lakewood.)
So without any benefit of doubt left to offer, it is clear as all your comments indicated, with your posting on the heilige Shabbos that aside from being an apikoris, you are a Mechallel Shabbos. The importance of pointing this out, is so that the readers realize that posters of your ilk are not the frum person they claim to be. A without doubt this applies to ‘others’ of your class who post anti-Torah comments (all the while denying it), yet are careful enough not to make one of those posts on the helige Shabbos Kodesh.November 2, 2008 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #623484
zevi8: frum jews dont look down at people who dont cover their hair, wear jeans etc… they try to mekarev them (just look at oorah etc.)however they look down at people who justify all the sins they commit by denying dass torah, and denying the concept tht there are halochos derabanan which are like deoraisa (veosisa kechol asher yorucha.
ii think the reason you are upset is that the torah and her folowers worldview does not fit yours. therefore you negate all those concepts which are not in your worldview as not being torah. im sorry but the torah has been here a long time and in every generation there have been people who have tryed to do the same thing you are doing. starting off from korach untill the modern day reformers. unfortunatley those on the fringes of othodoxcy are doing the same thing, fooling themselves.
i once had the zechus of hearing R’ Yasskov Galinsky speak. he said in his speach that everthing can be foun in the torah. for example a man owes another man money. when the lender comes for payment the borrower tells him “thou shalleth not opress him” and the lender retorts “a wicked man dosent pay”. they are both right but wrong.. the verse “thou shalleth not opress him” is for the lender, however “a wicked man dosent pay”. is for the borrower…think about that …. and remember to be honest with yourself and G-d.November 2, 2008 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #623485
You must be patting yourself on the back thinking “i got him now”. I caught him being mechalel shabbos and now i am going to post it in this forum for everyone to know. Its that self righteous, holier than thou attitude that i speak of when i talk about lakewood and other taliban type orthodoxy. The orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism. Qa, not that i have to explain myself to you, but it just so happens that Hong Kong is 13 hours ahead of Lakewood time. Think about that next time before you jump to conclusions and try playing rabbi sherlock holmes.November 2, 2008 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #623486jO jOMember
Hong Kong….with NJ ip address.
Stop while your ahead…..
Nuff said.November 2, 2008 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #623487
Aha zevi, now your trying to weasel yourself out. I mentioned the possibility you were in the far east. Except that you were asked that motzei shabbos if you are in Lakewood. At night you ignored the question, but the next morning you were asked again specifically “Are you in Lakewood?” and you stated unequivocally, “Yes.” Not No, or even: I live in Lakewood but am currently away. But at least you are now moida that you made that post Shabbos morning.
Are you agreeable that we ask the site administrator to check your IP address and see if it originated from a U.S. ISP (and we can even determine which state the IP address was from), when you made that Shabbos morning post 10/25 10:30 am?November 2, 2008 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #623488
You are all the experts and smart alecs. I’m not going to sit her and explain everything to you.November 2, 2008 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #623489
zevi8 said “The orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism.”
zevi8: So you are not orthodox . if you dont eat the food got out of the kitchen. you dont have any legitamacy at all for you have decided that all the gedolim, and frum yidden are not practicing true judaism. therfore halacha has no meaning to you. then you complain…. why do you care its not judaism?!November 2, 2008 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #623490
And btw zevi, I am not thinking “i got him now”, as you assumed. I am crying for you.November 2, 2008 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #623491
I am unbelievably shocked at the cross-examination that is going on here. Do users here have nothing better to do than to hunt around looking for ways to discredit those who have different views? Have we learned nothing from the “multiple personalities” situation? Everyone was utterly convinced that GMAB was logging in under seven different usernames, and then it turned out that there was a logical explanation.
Let’s just say, hypothetically, that zevi8 did post on Shabbos. So what? Is that any of our business or concern? No, of course not; it is between him and God. But I don’t think that zevi8 posted on Shabbos. If he says he is in Hong Kong, then I believe that he is in Hong Kong. He should not have to justify himself to anyone here. I myself am from Baltimore, but am spending the year in Eretz Yisrael. If somebody on this forum asked me, “Do you live in Baltimore?” I would probably answer in the affirmative simply out of habit. Yes, I am actually living in Israel for the year rather than just touring for a few weeks, but I also view Baltimore as my home. As much as I would like to live in the Holy Land permanently, for now it is only temporary, so I would still use the word “live” to describe my relationship to Baltimore.
Whether or not zevi8 was mechallel shabbos, it is a huge chilul hashem to post something of that nature on this forum. Zevi8’s credibility is now being called into question, and anybody who views this topic may believe that zevi8 was in fact mechallel shabbos. It doesn’t matter that these are screen names, it doesn’t matter that we are online- this is a form of loshon hara, and furthermore, it is a tremendous embarrassment to zevi8. One who embarrassed a person is as if he killed him.
Last summer, I attended a weekend reunion of a program I had gone on the previous year. On Friday night, after dinner, we had a late-night improv game session. One of the games involved us speaking for a short period of time about a subject thrown out by one of the other players. One person threw out the subject of cheese, which made for a humorous monologue. On Shabbos afternoon, we had a program called Sichot- conversations. We were paired up and given a list of questions to ask each other, the idea being that we would make new connections and get to know each other better. The third question on the list was “How do you eat your cheese?” One woman there said to me, “This means he must have typed up the list over Shabbos, because the cheese monologue happened when it was already Shabbos, so how would he have known to put that question there?” I didn’t believe that the man in question would have been mechallel shabbos and tried to think of an answer, to be dan l’kaf zechut. Since he was both the person who typed the list of questions and the person who threw out the subject of cheese, I decided that he must have added the cheese question to the list to be funny, as a way of breaking the ice, and thus already had cheese on his mind when Shabbos came in. This meant that on Friday night he threw out the idea because it was fresh in his mind. I don’t know if this is what really happened; I never asked him, because I don’t think it’s any of my business. But it’s much better to try to think of things like that than to just assume that the person is in the wrong.November 2, 2008 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #623492
How big of you, qa.
I’d like to add something else. I’ve often noticed that my posts take a while to show up on the website. My first post took about a week, so that initially I thought it hadn’t gone through, but then I realized that it’s just part of the system. They usually don’t take more than a few hours to go through now, but a few hours can make a difference in terms of Shabbos. I don’t know what other users’ experience is, but I never see my posts instantly after I write them, and when they do show up, the “time posted” is the time they are published, not the time I wrote them. So it’s also very possible that zevi8 wrote his post before Shabbos and it didn’t show up on YWN until after Shabbos had already started.November 2, 2008 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #623493AnonymousInactive
“the “time posted” is the time they are published, not the time I wrote them.”
Wrong.November 2, 2008 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #623494
1. he now confirmed he wrote the post in question.
2. he responded affirmatively to “Are you in Lakewood?” (not do you live in Lakewood) that motzei shabbos immediately following the post.
3. he was using a NJ IP address on the post made on Shabbos.
We cry for his return to the Torah. His posts (most recently: “The orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism.”) make more than abundantly clear he is away from it. The purpose of pointing this out, is lest others fall sway to his blasphemous views.November 2, 2008 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #623495
Okay, so time posted is the time we write posts. So zevi8 confirmed he wrote it. (What is the alternative, that somebody hacked into his account?) So he said he was in Lakewood. I still don’t see how this adds up to mechallel shabbos.
I am not familiar with the way IP addresses work. I am in Israel now, writing this from a laptop I purchased in America. Does the IP address reflect the origin of the computer itself, or the location of the wireless network to which I am connected? If the former, then one might think that I am in America and could mistakenly accuse me of the same thing.
I remember reading the post “are you in lakewood”. Without even asking myself or doubting what it meant, I just assumed it was another way of asking “do you live in lakewood”. I am sure zevi8 and probably others interpreted the question this way too.
It is not for us to decide who is “away from” the Torah and who is not. We should spend our time bringing ourselves closer to it, not deploring others whose hearts we cannot know. You take offense at his statement that your practices are not true Judaism, yet you will turn it around and say his is not true Judaism! Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy here?
I have now been on this forum long enough for other users to get a general picture of my views. I am not here to make enemies, but I too have been called all kinds of names and accused of all sorts of things, including being irrational, a misguided soul, anti-Torah, anti-religious, and the list goes on. Do you look for ways to incriminate me? Are you just waiting for me to slip so that you can expose my misdeeds and “save” others from “falling sway” to my “blasphemous views?” And do you honestly think that anyone who is secure in his/her Yiddishkeit could possibly be “swayed” by an online posting?
Say what you want. I steadfastly believe in zevi8’s innocence. And wouldn’t you want him to do the same for you if you found yourself in a situation where your own observance was under scrutiny?November 2, 2008 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #623496
And by the way, who is “we”?November 2, 2008 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #623497chalishMember
What I don’t understand is why Yeshiva World is posting stuff that were written on Shabbos. YW, from what I do understand you are a shomer shabbos website, so please, only endorse Shomer Shabbos commentators!!!November 2, 2008 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #623498November 2, 2008 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #623499
Thank you for defending me. I think that jewish people who are religious should realize that orthodox Judaism accounts for less than 10 percent of jewish people in the Usa. By sitting here and bashing only alienates non-religious jews and will never get them to see things religiously. The jewish people are supposed to be a light onto the nations and certainly a light onto each other. By sitting in ones own religious circle, you will never ever accomplish that and do any good. By the way, I am not denying the fact that i was using a nj ip address but that doesnt mean i was at the NJ ip. I am done trying to explain myself. I dont have to explain it to you. I despise the fact that you call my views blasphemous. Please qoute what you find to be so.November 3, 2008 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #623500
“He pontificates about how a Jew should lead his life.”
Right, and the rest of us never do that. We’ve never suggested that there is one right way to do things. We’ve never said that Jews who do x are sinning. Perhaps an investigation should be undertaken to try to dig up some information on everyone here.
zevi8, I understand what you mean when you say that “the Orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism”, but I’m not sure anyone else does. I know a woman who left Orthodoxy for this very reason. She grew up frum and her father was an Orthodox rabbi, but in those days women did not cover their hair. Orthodoxy has been moving more and more to the right, and she still practices Judaism the way she did growing up, but that lifestyle now fits more with the Conservative movement than with the Orthodox. So, no, I don’t think that the statement that “covering hair is not halacha” is “nonsense” or “a rant with no validity” because according to this woman, it simply wasn’t done in those days in frum circles.November 3, 2008 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #623501JosephParticipant
According to Torah law, married women must cover their hair whenever they are outside their home. A woman who fails to do so forfeits her kesubah and should technically be divorced by her husband (Kesuvos 72a; E.H. 115:1-4). Mishnah Berurah 75:14 and Beiur Halachah say it must even be covered inside the home.
Since the hair must be covered, when it is not covered it is considered an ervah, an uncovered area. No male may recite Kerias Shema, pray, recite a blessing, or learn Torah when the uncovered hair is visible to him (O.C. 75:2. This halachah applies to one’s own wife, sister, mother, etc. as well.). Accordingly, if such a person happens to be at the Shabbos table, Kiddush may not be recited.
The Mishna Brura states: even if it is the custom of this woman and her friends in that place to walk with uncovered hair publicly, in the way of immodest people, one may not recite prayers in view of her hair.
Aruch Hashulchan 72:7: “Now let us come and cry out regarding the immodesty of our generation, because of our many sins. For many years (some) Jewish women have been neglectful regarding this transgression, and they go with uncovered hair. All which they (the leaders, rabbis) have screamed about this has not helped or accomplished anything. Now the plague has spread, that married women go about with their hair just like unmarried women! Woe to us that such has occurred in our days.”
Anyone who says a married women can leave her hair uncovered in a rasha.November 3, 2008 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #623502
jewishfeminist02 “He pontificates about how a Jew should lead his life.”
Right, and the rest of us never do that.
you missed thee point! someone who is not observent should not preach to observent jews how to lead their lives. everything that zevi says reeks of apikorsus. he is nebach a apikorus, who is unaware, or denys basic halacha. zevi also stated that we are less than 10%. So what? Observent jews have to conform to the majority? No, they have to conform to us because we follow the true torah. Its interesting to note that one time a tzedduke (i may be misquoting the story, so please correct me) aske a tanna or amora: it says in your torah “thou shaleth follow the majority”, so therefor why dont the jews follow in the ways of the nations who are the majority? He answered that this law only applys if there is a doubt, we dont have adoubt!
agav by lowering our standard to conform to the nations, and to mekarev others is wrong. Why? b/c if we lower our standards it shows that their way of life has validity just like ours, and we could compromise. Truth need not compromise, and if you feel the the torah is not true then regect it totally,and please and dont try to corrupt it.you feel theNovember 3, 2008 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #623503
“Anyone who says a married woman can leave her hair uncovered is a rasha.” Wow, here’s a great example of what I meant before. I didn’t think it would happen so quickly. Joseph, you are pontificating about how a Jew should lead his life. I think we should look into your background and see how observant you really are, because maybe you go against Orthodoxy, in which case it would not be appropriate for you to be saying these things!
Seriously, though, why was that last sentence necessary? You could have just quoted the mekorot and that would have been fine, but no, you had to tack on an insult to everyone who disagrees with you.
Both R’ Yehoshua Babad and R’ J.B. Hurewitz both stated that in a society where hair is not generally considered sexually exciting, there is no problem for married women to go about with uncovered hair. In places where the general practice is to cover the hair, then the sight of uncovered hair is unusual and exciting. However, in a place where most women do not cover their hair, it is not necessary to do so.
The Talmud says that a man cannot use a mirror since it falls under the category of beged isha. However, the Rama comments that in a time when it is common for men to use mirrors, there is no violation of halacha if men want to use them. Can we not apply the same logic to hair covering?November 3, 2008 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #623504
I am sick of the name-calling. As I’ve stated numerous times, I feel that it is a) loshon hara and b) chilul hashem to toss around terms like “apikorus”. You can make your point without these terms.
Orthodox Jews are a minority, but this does not mean that we have to conform to the majority of Jewry. However, I would NEVER state that they have to conform to us, nor that we have the truth. No one has a monopoly on truth. No one can know if what they are doing is correct. All we can do is to try to do what Hashem wants from us. This is the motivation behind our actions, but we all have different ideas of what it is that Hashem wants. Who are we to judge others and to say that they are sinning? We are not God. Others’ lifestyles DO in fact have validity just like ours, but this does not mean that we need to compromise our own beliefs. Let them do what they feel is right, and we will do what we feel is right. There is no need to spend time attacking them when it would be so easy to coexist peacefully. I would never try to “corrupt” the Torah and I do believe that it is eternally true, so I have not “rejected it totally”; rather, I try to live my life according to my conception of Torah values, which clearly is drastically different from yours.November 3, 2008 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #623505David Bar-MagenMember
I have mentioned this once before, but it bears repeating.
This is an internet forum. Although the words being spoken are expressed in impersonal black type on a screen, there are real, often volatile, emotions behind them. In addition, there are many types of people from many walks of life who will inevitably find their way here. These people may challenge your deeply-held convictions and speak in a manner that violently offends you.
Do not speak any differently to them than you would speak to a real-life individual, standing before you and spouting views you do not agree with. If you are truly concerned for that person’s spirituality, a private e-mail or a phone call will go miles farther than an internet forum.
Remember this.November 3, 2008 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #623506
i disagree with u on 2 points a: i would not tell someone to conform to me, however when someone claims that “The orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism”, i will not stand idlely by and shviig (remain silent). B: there is only one truth. (not like the liberel minded think)However, that does not give me the right to force people to think and act like me. The Torah teaches however that proper ACTIONS are neccasary regardless to ones belife. On cannot eat chazer and say “hey all hashem wants from us is to try”. In the Kuzari an important tenant of Judaism is stated “your intentions are good, however your actions are not good”
I would like to stress that i would not “start up” with a “modern looking guy” on the street, or in this forum either, unprovoked. I will hoever if he starts to make outrageous claims such as “The orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism”, covering hair is not an halacha etc… Thank you for your understandingNovember 3, 2008 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #623507gavra_at_workParticipant
to add (I hope)
1: There is a difference between Chumrah (to the point of Chossid Shoyte) and Halacha. “The orthodoxy we know” includes much of the former, and not enough of the latter.
2: There is only one truth. Moshe Emes V’Toraso Emes. I believe jewishfeminist02’s point is that you (whomever you are, myself included) do not have that truth, as you are not G-d. To claim that you do have absolute truth or its interpetation to the exclusion of all others is extremely arrogant and borders on self deification.
Your Rav may be closer to G-d than you are and therefore may have a better idea of the “absolute truth”, but it is still not a “monopoly on truth”.
As per the post, it is sad that the rabbonim have lost control of the town, and that Lakewood has to revert to the politicians.November 3, 2008 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #623508lesschumrasParticipant
“who is not observent should not preach to observent jews how to lead their lives.”
“however when someone claims that “The orthodoxy we know is not true Judaism”, i will not stand idlely by and shviig (remain silent). B: there is only one truth. (not like the liberel minded think)”
Sadly, I must disagree with both you and Joseph. There has never been only one truth. The Gemorah, the rishonin,achronim etc are replete with conflicting positions on Halacha. The problem is that you think your truth is the only one and, to paraphrase your comment, the orthodoxy that anyone else knows is not the true Judaism.November 3, 2008 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #623509
A: I’m not saying that it’s necessary to “remain silent” when someone makes what you feel are “outrageous claims”, but if you respond, do it in a polite manner and refrain from harsh accusations.
B: There are multiple truths. That is what makes Judaism so beautiful. Yes, it is a religion based on deeds, not faith like Christianity, but one’s time and effort is best spent trying to improve his/her own actions, not worrying about others’. We all have different nisyonos. For a baal teshuvah who has tasted pork prior to becoming religious and who remembers what it tasted like, it could be extremely difficult not to go back to eating it. Yes, all Hashem wants from us is to try, and despite our best efforts, we all slip sometimes. What seems to us to be unforgivable is an easy mistake for someone else. In the same vein, our struggles might seem silly to someone else. When I die and have to face the Heavenly Court, I want to be judged favorably and with compassion, so I will try to do the same for others here on earth rather than looking only for the bad and condemning it.November 3, 2008 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #623510
Let us remember why the second bais hamikdosh was destroyed. It wasnt because of eating pork or not keeping shabbos or any other transgression like that. It was because fellow jews did not treat each other with respect and hated each other. If hashem judged all these people like they judge other people, everyone would be in big trouble. Who is man to judge? Judgement is for Hashem. The fact that less than 10% of jews are observant should be reason enough for people to reach out, instead of rebuking. That will never get people to see things your way. It only pushes them further away.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.