December 10, 2011 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #601078Think firstMember
Do you think your Emunah is strong enough? Can you give it over to your children with clarity? Can you prove that there was maamad har sinai? Can you explain why the cristians are wrong?December 11, 2011 12:06 am at 12:06 am #834542Derech HaMelechMember
Yes. I hope so. Possibly. Easily.December 11, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #834543
Can you prove that there was maamad har sinai?
One could argue that if you need to *prove* it, then your emunah is not strong enough.
The WolfDecember 11, 2011 12:41 am at 12:41 am #834544
You seem to take for granted that emunah means “blind faith”. From where do you get that idea?December 11, 2011 1:06 am at 1:06 am #834545
emuna p’shuta is not simply blind faith…i know what wolf meantDecember 11, 2011 1:12 am at 1:12 am #834546
obtw…how WOULD you PROVE maamad har sinai other than accepting a mesorah that it happened?December 11, 2011 1:18 am at 1:18 am #834547
OK, for the sake of avoiding an unnecessary argument, how about the OP define “Emunah” and then we’ll continue.
The WolfDecember 11, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #834548
Why should I be explaining why Christians are wrong? They are not the current threat.December 11, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #834549
“Can you explain why the cristians are wrong?”
your emuna should not be pendant on everyone else being wrong…it should be more a belief that you are rightDecember 11, 2011 2:03 am at 2:03 am #834550
Can you explain why the cristians are wrong?
Just out of curiosity… do you believe that one’s cannot have strong emunah without being able to explain why every other religion is wrong (I’m assuming you selected “Christians” simply because they are the most common example in the US)?
Can you explain why the Bahai are wrong? The Shinto? The Zoroastrians? Mithraism? Dahomey? Do you know enough about those religions to make sure that the arguments you present against them aren’t either straw man arguments or based on misunderstandings of them?
Or is it okay to just know why Christians are wrong and ignore all the others?
The WolfDecember 11, 2011 2:11 am at 2:11 am #834551RSRHMember
soliek: Well said!
Depending on how you define emuna, maybe yes, maybe no. But either way, I’m not sure how this is something you can “give over” to your children. I can certainly tell then what things I accept as true, and what obligations I accept as binding on myself. As to WHY I accept them – well, I’m not sure how that is relevant to my children. They will have to accept them (or not) for their own reasons, based on their own nature and their own unique needs, perspective, and way of thinking.
No, I can’t “prove” maamad Har Sinai. I accept that there was a maamad Har Sinai. That is all, and that is all I will ask of my child(ren).
No, I can’t explain why the Christians are “wrong” (wrong about what exactly). I’m not sure why I should or would. I guess if they are interested in that sort of thing, I could direct them to any number of texts that I would be happy to read and discuss with them. but that sort of theological discussion just doesn’t bother or interest me – Torah is not theology, it is law. But that’s just my perspective.December 11, 2011 8:18 am at 8:18 am #834552skiaddictMember
If anything i would say can you prove the arabs and muslims are wrong because they are much more of a threat than the christians.
And yes, i think i could prove it, but its always hard explaining things you feel, especially if half of it IS only feeling!(which i guess is what emuna is!)Thats why there are trained kiruv people, to explain things that are hard to explain, but i know they definitly can be explained, and if so many parents have done it till now, i suppose it is possible to give it over to our children.December 11, 2011 8:34 am at 8:34 am #834553jmj613Participant
I had a time when doubting maamad har sinai and other things and started reading book from rav neugershel who, aiming for people who didn’t grow up in a frum home,explains rationally why maamad har sinai is true. But I made it to 27 years not asking for proof because that’s just how I grew up. So I think there is no need to give evidence to our kids. But in case they come to you and ask questions its not enough to just say that’s kabule mi dor ledor and forget it. Its important to be able to deal with the questions our kids ask us no matter how old they are. In the end after reading books it stays emuna pshuta.December 11, 2011 10:20 am at 10:20 am #834554dash™Participant
I cannot prove Maamad Har Sinai but if I could prove it, than it wouldn’t be Emunah.December 11, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #834555
“I cannot prove Maamad Har Sinai but if I could prove it, than it wouldn’t be Emunah.”
This notion disturbs me. How can Hashem ask us to follow his Torah without giving us a way to know for sure that it is true. Furthermore, why would you follow it if you had no way of knowing that it was true. Are you saying that you would believe whatever it is you were taught to believe without questioning. Is that a virtue? What if you were raised to believe in something else? Is this the definition of emunah?December 11, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #834556🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I have read muchon emunah so I apologize for not knowing which source to give but I have learned that Emunah is in no way blind faith. It is complete faith. Knowing it is true and beliving in the implications of its truth.
Rabbi Gottleib (Im pretty sure its him) from Ohr Sameach has awesome tape lectures on proof of the Torah Given at Sinai.December 11, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #834557MiddlePathParticipant
I have absolute faith that G-d is in control of everything, and everything that happens is part of G-d’s plan, and is therefore for the best. This is all regardless of whether or not I am able to prove anyone else wrong. That doesn’t affect my faith in G-d.December 11, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #834558
Hashem has provided us with enough evidence of His existence and the truth of His Torah. He has also given us temptation (both physical and psychological) which cloud our vision and make it very difficult to see this truth.
Emunah is when we remain committed to truth and look past the murkiness and confusion to see Hashem and remain loyal to Him.December 11, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #834559twistedParticipant
Humans are created with the capacity to seek truth, to sift truth from falsehoods, and to reach conclusions. That is the essence of emunah. Anything less is a failing for the human, and certainly for a Jew, a witness for Hashem’s truths. Of course a human can also live a whole life based on feelgood, security and falsehoods, but that is the path to avodah zara, not the ideal existence for a human.December 11, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #834560
Beautifully written. Eloquent and to the point. Thank you.December 11, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #834561
I cannot prove Maamad Har Sinai but if I could prove it, than it wouldn’t be Emunah.
This reminds me of Achaz, who responded to Yeshaya’s request that he pick any miracle, that he doesn’t want to, Chas V’shalom, bother Hashem.December 11, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #834562observanteenMember
Do you think your Emunah is strong enough? Can you give it over to your children with clarity? Can you prove that there was maamad har sinai? Can you explain why the cristians are wrong?
I’m not sure if you’re asking this question out of curiosity or because you want some chizuk on Emuna.
Firstly, I think you should read “Permission to Believe” and “Permission to Recieve” from Lawrence Kelemen.
To answer your questions:
– I think my Emuna is strong, but there’s always room for improvement, and a shiur on Emuna is always a bonus.
– I’ve done some research, and so, I feel that yes, I can (will iy”h)hopefully be able to give it over to my children with clarity (although I will certainly daven for siyatta dishmaya, ask my husband/rav for guidance etc.).
– I can prove mamad har sinai, by the fact that it states in the Torah that so many people witnessed this big event. Had it been false, it could’ve been easily proven wrong (our great-great-great…grandparents would say that their parent, or grandparents never witnessed anything like that). Also this is THE ONLY RELIGION that has this! This is not me who’s saying this, but I’ve read it in “Permission to Recieve” where he’s researched EVERY SINGLE RELIGION OUT THERE. There’s always ONE “prophet” who somehow saw “G-D” and recieved a set of laws, bla bla bla. There’s ONE religion that did have a large number of witnesses, but they all, unfortunately, died on the spot – amazing, huh?
Amnan Yitzchak answered someone to this question, “When there’s a major court case, do you think 6 witnesses are enough?”
“How about 600,000, is that enough for you?! Do you think they ALL dreamed this up?!”
“Oh, yeah, but the <bold>Torah</bold> says there were 600,000 Jews to accept the Torah! So we’re back to square one. Why should I believe the Torah’s true?”
“Was there Pesach this year?”
“And the year before?”
“Nudnik, there’s Pesach every year!”
“Oh, yeah? Ever since?”
“Yetzias Mitzrayim, silly!”
“Aha! So, tell me, is the Torah true?!”
– As for christianity, I don’t really see why that.33 would make it or break it, but it certainly doesn’t make too much sense, and I would easily prove it.
Hatzlacha!December 11, 2011 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #834563dash™Participant
This reminds me of Achaz, who responded to Yeshaya’s request that he pick any miracle, that he doesn’t want to, Chas V’shalom, bother Hashem.
This is the first time I’ve been compared to Achaz but I fail to see the analogy.December 12, 2011 4:09 am at 4:09 am #834564
I didn’t say anything about you. I am merely walking your point to the end to point out what is wrong with it. The Navi told him to ask for a Ness to cause him to believe in Hashem. His response was that he doesn’t want to ‘bother’ Hashem. He was feigning Emuna Pshuta.
Emuna means to believe. Seeing is believing, too. If you have a chance to strengthen your Emuna with stories of Gedolim and Nissim, or with proofs, how can you turn it down!?December 12, 2011 9:52 am at 9:52 am #834565jmj613Participant
@observanteen loved what u posted. all the answers you wrote are the right ones just as my “research” told me and yes i ve seen the video where rav amnon answered this!!December 12, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #834566
If you have a chance to strengthen your Emuna with stories of Gedolim and Nissim, or with proofs, how can you turn it down!?
Simple. I was not put here to be a Malach. The One who put me here wanted me to be a person, with nisyonos. If Emunah was so obvious, there would be no nisayon.
As far as the OP, I don’t see any need to prove. First prove that you are a person (and not a figment of someone’s imagination) and then we can discuss Maamad Har Sinai 🙂December 12, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #834567
Herr Gavra, is that supposed to be a response?
You wrote two conflicting paragraphs. The first one seems to say that you won’t even pay attention to a proof because you have a Nesayon, or want one (?). Then you seem to be saying that it is too obvious to need proof. So, um, where’s your much needed Nesayon!?December 12, 2011 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #834568
Thank you. I appreciate someone who knows how to properly address an individual.
I don’t expect (or want) to be given proofs that will remove my bechira.
The possibility of Ma’amid Har Sinai makes assumptions (for example, those who “stood” there had legs, there is such a thing called a mountain, the existence of the Ribbono shel Olam, the existence of Moshe Rabbanu, etc.). One must prove the assumptions of the event before proving the event.December 12, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #834569
People have done Aveiros after the greatest revalations. People witnessed real Nevua and yet mocked it. Don’t worry about your Bechira.
It is not your job to make yourself Nisyonos. Hashem made the Yetzer Hara, your job is to fight it. Remember what happened to David Hamelech when he asked for a Nesayon.
By Avraham Avinu it says Vehe’emin Bashem Vayachshive’ha Lo Tzedaka, although he just heard the Havtacha from Hashem. Emuna is a Midda that doesn’t depend on blindness. It has to do with steadfastness. Surely you should have Emuna with or without any proofs, but why shouldn’t you build on it? Emuna is the unmoving loyalty and bond. That comes after knowledge. It is partly based on what you know but is mainly a Midda.
I’m not advocating pilosophical discussion or even scientific, necessarily. Build on your Emuna with stories or with Torah or once in a while some proofs that are out there.
The point of your second paragraph still evades me.December 12, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #834570
C”V I’m asking for a Nisayon! I just am not looking for Hashem to take away my Bechira. If seeing a Nes will not do so, then it is not a proof.
The second paragraph: Proof of an event (let’s call it a theorem) requires some prior assumptions (let’s call them axioms). I am questioning the Axioms (or saying to prove the axioms before proving the event).
As an example, there is a theorem that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This assumes the Parallel postulate (simply that there can not be more than one Parallel line through a point).
Now, if we challenge that assumption (the Parallel postulate), the theorem is no longer true. Then we can imagine (or prove) a system (non Euclidian Geometry) in which the shortest distance is not a straight line.December 12, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #834571TheTrollMember
hakol beday shomayim chutz me yiras shomayim, so does that include emuna?
I have full belief that I have strong emuna!December 12, 2011 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #834572
There are plenty of proofs out there, but you have to care enough to be honest with yourself. Paroh managed to laugh off some pretty solid proof with hair-splitting excuses. Nothing can force someone who refuses to believe, to believe. But, to a believer, many things can offer a boost and protection, or shock absorber.
Don’t fool yourself. Emuna needs constant boosting. On this forum itself you can see how, during a crises, people lose faith or get angry at the One in charge. There is no room to tease yourself for the sake of perhaps getting S’char.December 12, 2011 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #834573
Would you not agree that standing at har sinai during kabbalas haTorah constituted proof that it happened. Yet our ancestors who had that experience, sadly, just forty days later, went on to worship a golden calf and say the words “These are your gods, Yisrael who took you up from the land of mitzrayim. Now, I am well aware that there are many explanations as to what the actual sin was. However, no matter what it was, it certainly constituted a lack of emunah. Clearly, with all that proof, the nisayon of emunah had not been removed.December 13, 2011 12:41 am at 12:41 am #834574Think firstMember
Well said and yes that’s a great book to read. And Rabbi mechanics tapes on Emuna are just as good.December 13, 2011 1:32 am at 1:32 am #834575
If I understand correctly, your other point is that you can’t prove Maamid Har Sinai unless you already believe in it. True, that once you believe the Torah you don’t have to prove every detail in it. But, perhaps there is a proof to Maamid Har Sinai that doesn’t draw on other Emunos. That will be a proof to the Amitus Hatorah.December 13, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #834576lolkatzMember
Someone’s emunah isn’t strong enough if he/she is posting here on Shabbos.
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