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  • #965249

    “So when s/o starts becoming like this at 40 -where were they all these years? Late bloomers – huh?”

    There is no such thing as “becoming like this” at age 40. Most gay people will tell you that they always “knew” they were gay from the age of five, or twelve, or fifteen or whatever, but that they tried to suppress it. And let’s face it, who wouldn’t try to suppress it? Who would want to have a homosexual attraction? Those who “come out of the closet” at age 40 have been hiding in it for decades.

    #965250
    Health
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 -“There is no such thing as “becoming like this” at age 40. Most gay people will tell you that they always “knew” they were gay from the age of five, or twelve, or fifteen or whatever, but that they tried to suppress it. Those who “come out of the closet” at age 40 have been hiding in it for decades.”

    I’m sorry that the truth doesn’t jive with the liberal propaganda. What I posted before wasn’t something I read -it’s something I know. I know people who became like this and they weren’t anything like in the closet beforehand. So what it is basically – people aren’t born with this -it’s a Taiva. The question why young kids develop such a Taiva probably has to do with their environment, like their parents.

    #965251
    just my hapence
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 – There is very little evidence for any kind of biological basis for same-sex attraction. Foster and non-foster twin studies have shown virtually no difference in probability (as compared to general population) of homosexuality in one twin if the other is gay, ruling out genetic and epigenetic causes. The problem for gay rights activists is that, when searching for a biological basis, the only ‘acceptable’ options are genetic or epigenetic as neurological or developmental origins would then catagorise homosexuality as either a condition or a disorder (note that these do not necessarily imply disease or illness, just deviation from ‘standard set-up’) whereas the activists need to portray homosexuality as simply another variant of the standard human set-up. Simply speaking, a neurological condition would mean that the brain functions differently to the basic programmed settings for all humanity. If we admit such, it means also admitting that heterosexuality is the default mode of human orientation and that homosexuality is, in some way, an aberration. This is something no self-respecting activist is willing to do. The same holds true with a developmental origin, as that would imply that somehow the cognitive functions of gay people developed along different lines to straight people, again requiring the ‘default mode’ being heterosexuality.

    Apart from the lack of evidence, there is also the logical problem with a genetic (or epigenetic) basis for homosexuality. If, as pretty much every gay rights activist does, you believe in Darwinian (or even neo-Darwinian) evolution then how does a ‘gay gene’ propagate? In a world in which mating is purely based on attraction and there are no ‘social taboos’ on engaging in homosexual acts (as would be the case with early man) then the gene cannot be passed on as such acts cannot produce conception. No-one can be born from the mating of two males or two females, and those who would have had same-sex desires would have had no need to involve themselves in sham marriages (as many over the course of history did in fact do) as there was no pressure for them to act as if they were straight so no homosexual male would have mated with a heterosexual female (or visa-versa) to propagate said gene.

    At the end of the day it is a ta’aivah. Yes, it may be a very strong one but you cannot excuse people simply on the basis of having a very strong ta’aivah. There are prisons full of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, con artists, muggers, bank robbers and burglars to prove that.

    #965252

    “The problem for gay rights activists is that, when searching for a biological basis, the only ‘acceptable’ options are genetic or epigenetic as neurological or developmental origins would then catagorise homosexuality as either a condition or a disorder (note that these do not necessarily imply disease or illness, just deviation from ‘standard set-up’) whereas the activists need to portray homosexuality as simply another variant of the standard human set-up. Simply speaking, a neurological condition would mean that the brain functions differently to the basic programmed settings for all humanity. If we admit such, it means also admitting that heterosexuality is the default mode of human orientation and that homosexuality is, in some way, an aberration. This is something no self-respecting activist is willing to do.”

    Well, fortunately, I am not a gay rights activist and I have no qualms about saying that I believe that homosexuality IS in fact a disorder. Heterosexuality is the “default”, or “norm”, or whatever you want to call it, and some people unfortunately have to live with being born gay. Whether it is neurological or developmental, I don’t know, but it is not a lifestyle choice any more than a cleft palate, for instance, is a lifestyle choice. It is a disorder. Furthermore, it is a disorder with no known cure. Frum homosexuals who control their sexual appetites and live alone or married to lesbians are true tzaddikim.

    #965253
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I read an opinion from a YCT-trained rabbi which argued that sexually-active homosexuals should be considered innocent, since their actions ought to be patur under “ones rachmama patrei.”

    If an allowance is made for this, and on the basis of neurological proclivity, than why not excuse pedophiles, murderers, drug addicts, etc. whose pathology is correlationally-linked with neurological anomalies? Where do we draw the line with people claiming that biology excuses a lack or absence of moral judgment? Rationality and morality are what separate us from beasts.

    #965254
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: People don’t discover it mid-life. It (in many cases) grows in time, just like normal sexual attraction does for normal people. Most people who come out, even if they didn’t realize it at an earlier age, realized that there was something not normal in there heterosexual relationship.

    What does happen nowadays, which R”L is caused by the good publicity that homosexuality gets, is people who are attracted to both genders who will choose to let their homosexual attraction become dominant (whether subconsciously or consciously).

    #965255

    Sam2, my husband has a close friend who is very frum and has an attraction to both genders that is making him miserable. He wants his homosexual attraction to just go away, but so far he has been unsuccessful. He is in his late twenties and refuses shidduchim, because he doesn’t think it is fair to any woman for him to marry her and still have these thoughts about men. It has driven him into a deep depression such that it is even difficult for him to hold down a job. He hates himself. I so wish there was something we could do for him.

    #965256
    rebdoniel
    Member

    A bisexual or homosexual cannot change. Reparative therapy doesn’t work. The only option I viably see for such individuals is to live celibate lives full of torah, mitzvoth, and ma’aseh chesed. Not being able to have a family is painful, but there are sadly many heterosexuals in our community who don’t marry and still live meaningful, beautiful lives where they give back to others, pursue friendships, and focus on torah learning and chesed.

    #965257

    I agree. I also think that the option of gays marrying lesbians should be more seriously considered. There have been a number of these marriages already. They will never have sexual fulfillment, but at least it gives them companionship and an opportunity to start their own families.

    #965259
    just my hapence
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 – Sorry, but there’s no evidence for a neurological or developmental basis either. They may well have known from an early age that they have certain ta’aivahs, I knew from an early age that I had a ta’aivah for chocolate, doesn’t mean it’s not a ta’avaih. Unfortunately many people know from an early age that they have a very strong ta’avaih for physically abusing people or a ta’avaih for money that is so strong they will do literally anything to get it. Yet we label these people criminals because ta’avaihs are not excuses (I’m not saying that homosexual ta’aivahs should be criminal, just using an extreme example). I agree with you that a frum Jew with homosexual ta’avaihs who controls them is extremely admirable, but that doesn’t mean that what they are controlling is not a ta’aivah.

    #965260
    benignuman
    Participant

    “A bisexual or homosexual cannot change. Reparative therapy doesn’t work.”

    I don’t know if reparative therapy works or not. I suspect that it may depend on how you define work. Does “work” mean an increased ability to suppress ones urges? Does “work” mean developing an attraction (even if minor) to the opposite gender? Or does “work” mean only a full blown change in orientation?

    I also think that there is misapprehension as to the general success of psychotherapy. Almost no psychotherapy “works” in more than a 1/3 of cases and they define “work” very loosely. I wonder if reparative therapy does damage because there are false expectations.

    However, I have a very hard time believing that it is literally impossible for them to change. There are very few things that one simply cannot change about themselves. It may just be so difficult that 99% who try will fail. One can then have an argument about whether it is worth it to try if failure is such an overwhelming likelihood.

    #965261
    Matan1
    Participant

    benignuman,

    Have you ever heard of cognitive behavioral therapy? It has a success rate that rivals that of medication. If you google “Comparative Effectiveness of Medication Versus Cognitive-Behavioral

    Therapy in a Randomized Controlled Trial of Low-Income Young Minority

    Women With Depression”, you will find an excellent study showing the success of CBT.

    #965262
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    However, I have a very hard time believing that it is literally impossible for them to change. There are very few things that one simply cannot change about themselves.

    Do you think that with therapy you could become gay?

    #965263
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam2, my husband has a close friend who is very frum and has an attraction to both genders that is making him miserable. He wants his homosexual attraction to just go away, but so far he has been unsuccessful. He is in his late twenties and refuses shidduchim, because he doesn’t think it is fair to any woman for him to marry her and still have these thoughts about men. It has driven him into a deep depression such that it is even difficult for him to hold down a job. He hates himself. I so wish there was something we could do for him.

    That sounds really horrible.

    But I’m not sure I get why he doesn’t just marry a woman. So he’ll desire other men–but to no greater an extent than all married men can also desire other women. Why is his situation so different than all men?

    Is it any different than if I like pizza and he likes pizza and also hamburgers, but each of us can still only eat once?

    #965264
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Have you ever heard of cognitive behavioral therapy? It has a success rate that rivals that of medication. If you google “Comparative Effectiveness of Medication Versus Cognitive-Behavioral

    Therapy in a Randomized Controlled Trial of Low-Income Young Minority

    Women With Depression”, you will find an excellent study showing the success of CBT.

    CBT is garbage, and those studies are junk science.

    Indeed, it works just as much as medication. lol

    #965265
    benignuman
    Participant

    PBA,

    Yes.

    However, I don’t know if the right word is “therapy.” I think that if I devoted myself to becoming gay, I probably could do it (and if I would fail it would not be because it was impossible but because it was too difficult and I gave up).

    I think that part of the perception that it cannot be done comes from people underestimating the plasticity of the brain and the power of the mind. If people can suppress the need for sustenance such that they can go on hunger strikes for months despite food being put in front of them, then people can suppress their sexuality as well.

    #965266
    Matan1
    Participant

    Popa,

    Could you provide evidence that CBT is “garbage” and that the studies are “junk science”?

    #965267
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Could you provide evidence that CBT is “garbage” and that the studies are “junk science”?

    It’s garbage because it is like any other quick cure scheme. Go find someone who was cured in 10 sessions or whatever they promise. I’d like to meet him.

    The studies are junk science, because they use people who are only suffering from one thing. Like depression, but not anxiety. Such people don’t exist in the real world, and using them is not responsible science.

    But the kicker is that the CBT practitioners themselves go to regular therapy instead of CBT.

    Read more, on Ben Sorotzkin’s website.

    #965268
    benignuman
    Participant

    Matan1,

    The issue is overall effectiveness, not in comparison to medication. The following is a quote from the book The Undiscovered Mind:

    “One ‘striking’ finding, Elkin said, was the ‘relatively small percentage of patients who remain in treatment, fully recover, and remain completely well throughout the 18-month followup period.’ Only 24 percent of the patients recovered from their depression by the end of the 16-week treatment period and remained free of major symptoms for the next 18 months. The percentage of paitents on each regime who stayed well were as follows: cognitive-behavioral therapy, 30 percent; interpersonal therapy, 26 percent; placebo plus clinical management, 20 percent; imipramine, 19 percent.”

    Thus, although CBT appears to be the best treatment for depression out there, it still only produces long-term results in 30% of cases (and I wonder what the effectiveness rate would be if we stretched that out to 3 years instead of 18-months).

    #965269
    Matan1
    Participant

    Popa,

    I don’t think any legitimate therapist would claim to be able to cure someone in a limited number of sessions. What they might say is that you may see results in given number and of sessions.

    It’s ridiculous to say that Noone can suffer from just depression or just anxiety. Take a look at the DSM. The criteria for depression is wildly different.

    #965270
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t think any legitimate therapist would claim to be able to cure someone in a limited number of sessions. What they might say is that you may see results in given number and of sessions.

    but that’s what they claim.

    It’s ridiculous to say that Noone can suffer from just depression or just anxiety. Take a look at the DSM. The criteria for depression is wildly different.

    No, it’s ridiculous to say that you’ve ever met someone who has one but not the other.

    #965271
    Matan1
    Participant

    I’m sure that there are people who suffer from both. My point is that depression and anxiety are not the same, and that most people who have one don’t have the other. So to say that the studies are junk science because they only use people who have one mental illness and not ywo is silly.

    #965272
    MorahRach
    Member

    Popa, what you said just does not make sense to me at all. Yes, while most of us women don’t want to admit it, I’m sure most married frum men have desires here and there about other women besides their wives. To compare THAT to a gay individual who never gets to satisfy his urges and has to spend his life with a person whom he has zero sexual attraction towards is another thing altogether. A married man is or should be attracted to his wife. He probably is satisfied in thSt way. The occasional desire for another woman is natural but if he’s a good person and husband, it stops there. But he still gets to be satisfied. To say that a gay man is no “worse” off, shows how little you understand the situation. That’s almost like saying a vegetarian and a carnivore who is forbidden from eating meat are in the same boat.

    #965273
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    morahrach:

    I think if you go back and look at the story I was responding to, you’ll understand my comments differently.

    #965274
    Health
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 -“and some people unfortunately have to live with being born gay. Whether it is neurological or developmental, I don’t know, but it is not a lifestyle choice any more than a cleft palate, for instance, is a lifestyle choice. It is a disorder.”

    Sam2 -“Health: People don’t discover it mid-life. It (in many cases) grows in time, just like normal sexual attraction does for normal people. Most people who come out, even if they didn’t realize it at an earlier age, realized that there was something not normal in there heterosexual relationship.”

    I guess the two of you didn’t comprehend my post. I don’t know if any gay person is born that way, but I do know many that became that way and it wasn’t inside of them at all, hidden or in the closet or otherwise. I know it’s hard to believe all the Liberal propaganda that people are exposed to, esp. in the media, about gays is False. This is like saying a Frum guy goes into a Burger King at 30 yo and for the first time in his life orders a HAMburger and this desire to eat Treif was an inborn trait, not just something he decided to do now. Ridiculous.

    #965275

    “I guess the two of you didn’t comprehend my post.”

    No, I comprehended it fine. I just didn’t change my mind because of it.

    “I don’t know if any gay person is born that way, but I do know many that became that way and it wasn’t inside of them at all, hidden or in the closet or otherwise. I know it’s hard to believe all the Liberal propaganda that people are exposed to, esp. in the media, about gays is False.”

    Again I ask you: why would a person choose to become gay? Why on earth, if it really is a choice, would anyone decide to drastically limit their pool of potential partners and become a target of criticism? It just doesn’t make sense.

    Furthermore, this is not coming from exposure to “liberal propaganda in the media”. I certainly see other perspectives on homosexuality on a regular basis, not least from right here in the Coffee Room. I have read a lot about the topic and thought a lot about the topic. When I was in college, I actually became more conservative as a result of seeing everyone around me being rabidly liberal. It is an insult to my intelligence for you to tell me that I have, in effect, been duped by the media. I have not. I came to these conclusions on my own.

    #965276
    moi aussi
    Member

    To those who say that gay people don’t choose to be gay, why does the Torah say that mishkav zachar is an abomination and those who are guilty deserve the death penalty? Hashem doesn’t punish anyone who is born with a cleft palate, so how do you even make such a silly comparison? Nobody is born gay, just like nobody is born a murderer. There is no gay gene, it’s all in the mind, that’s where all ta’avos start.

    #965277
    heretohelp
    Member

    @Health- the analogy to the frum guy going into Burger King is maybe the least apt and least useful analogy there could possibly be.

    #965278
    Health
    Participant

    JF02 -“Again I ask you: why would a person choose to become gay? Why on earth, if it really is a choice, would anyone decide to drastically limit their pool of potential partners and become a target of criticism? It just doesn’t make sense.”

    A lot of things don’t make sense, but people do it because the Yetzer Hora tells them to. I’d try to answer your questions, but the best people to ask are the ones like I know who never were like this ever before, not even deep down, no matter what you say.

    “Furthermore, this is not coming from exposure to “liberal propaganda in the media”. I came to these conclusions on my own.”

    I’m really not interested where you picked up this liberal belief. I’m just telling you, from first hand experience, that this belief is nonsense!

    #965279
    Health
    Participant

    heretohelp -“@Health- the analogy to the frum guy going into Burger King is maybe the least apt and least useful analogy there could possibly be.”

    Yes. I used a simple analogy for the simple minds who post here!

    #965280
    benignuman
    Participant

    moi aussi,

    The Torah forbids the action not the attraction. Everybody has different yetzer horahs. Although it is possible to develop a yetzer for something, for the most part people don’t have control of the tayvas they are subject to from the outset. The Torah forbids you from acting on those tayvas against halacha.

    Thank Hashem that you don’t have this yetzer, that you don’t have this nisayon.

    Health,

    I think jewishfeminist is talking about choosing to have the yetzer, not choosing to act on the yetzer.

    #965281
    heretohelp
    Member

    @Health- I didn’t say it was simple. I said it was inapt and not useful. That’s not a good thing. Don’t be so proud.

    #965282

    “To those who say that gay people don’t choose to be gay, why does the Torah say that mishkav zachar is an abomination and those who are guilty deserve the death penalty?”

    It’s very simple.

    Some people are born gay. It is not a choice. But BEING gay is also not an aveirah. It is only ACTING on it that brings the death penalty. Many people have pointed out that some are born with a natural inclination to rape and murder, but we don’t excuse their behavior because “they were born that way”. This is very true. We don’t excuse the behavior of rapists and murderers. But a person who is born with the inclination to rape and never commits a rape has done nothing wrong. In fact, he is a true tzaddik.

    We all have the yetzer hara for something or other. Some men have a yetzer hara that gives them the desire to partner with other men. They didn’t ask for that desire. All we can require of them is that they not listen to it. But claiming that they don’t have that yetzer hara in the first place, or that they acquired it later in life because of environmental conditioning, or liberal media, or what have you, makes a mockery of their struggles.

    #965283
    Health
    Participant

    heretohelp -“@Health- I didn’t say it was simple. I said it was inapt and not useful. That’s not a good thing. Don’t be so proud.”

    It’s only inapt for those who have trouble understanding the Moshol even as simple as it is.

    #965284
    Health
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 -“Some people are born gay. It is not a choice.”

    You keep repeating the same line over & over. Do you have any proof to your claims? Do you know even one gay person that told you he/she was born with these desires?

    “But claiming that they don’t have that yetzer hara in the first place, or that they acquired it later in life because of environmental conditioning, or liberal media, or what have you, makes a mockery of their struggles.”

    You can’t claim mockery because I have first-hand knowledge that they didn’t have the Yetzer Hora in the first place and Did acquire it later in life. What proof do You have that some are born like this?????

    #965286
    Matan1
    Participant

    Health,

    What is your first hand knowledge?

    #965287
    moi aussi
    Member

    jewishfeminist

    If you say that people are born gay/rapist/murderer, you’re saying that it’s in the genes, however until this day, no such genes were discovered.

    Have you seen the movie “Trading Places”? The message therein was that people become what society makes of them. Environment and upbringing create rapists and murderers. Homosexuality is a lust which starts in the head, it’s created with our thinking. If we let go of our thinking, we can change our orientation. Being gay is just a thought.

    #965288
    heretohelp
    Member

    @moi aussi- what is the difference between being gay and having gay thoughts?

    #965289
    Health
    Participant

    Matan1 -“Health, What is your first hand knowledge?”

    Do you want to know the definition of “first-hand knowledge”?

    If yes, I’m Not a dictionary – look it up.

    Or do you want the private details, like Names, Addresses, Ages, etc. on a public forum?

    #965290
    Health
    Participant

    rd -“A bisexual or homosexual cannot change. Reparative therapy doesn’t work.”

    This statement of yours is liberal propaganda nonsense!

    I personally am Not in the Mental Health field -so I don’t have a professional opinion on this, but you’ll find many professional opinions on NARTH’s website. Well, you’ll tell me that website is Nogeiah. And the answer to this is they Quote many Mental Health professionals, who were not forced to have their opinions.

    The next guy’s opinion, which I found online, will be an eye opener to most, not just to the Libs here!

    #965292
    Matan1
    Participant

    Is your first hand knowledge anything more than anecdotal evidence?

    #965293
    heretohelp
    Member

    @Health-

    We know what firsthand knowledge means. It seems you’re the one who’s confused. I suggest you follow your own advice and look it up.

    #965294
    Health
    Participant

    Matan1 -“Is your first hand knowledge anything more than anecdotal evidence?”

    Another dictionary question. Since when is “anecdotal evidence” even close to “first-hand knowledge”?

    #965296
    moi aussi
    Member

    @heretohelp

    You asked me what the difference is between being gay and having gay thoughts.

    Being gay is a result of having gay thoughts, and is not, as some people claim, a genetic predisposition. It’s a ta’ava, a lust which starts as a thought and develops as a way of life, like many other ta’avos/lusts. We can control almost anything with our mind, physical and mental. The Lubavitcher Rebbe said “Tracht gut, wird sein gut”. (No, I’m not a Lubavitcher, I’m just trying to prove how strong the mind is.)

    #965297

    “If you say that people are born gay/rapist/murderer, you’re saying that it’s in the genes, however until this day, no such genes were discovered.”

    No, I’m not saying it’s genetic at all. It’s personality. People are born with personality traits. There is no such thing as a “rapist gene” or a “gay gene”, but babies come into this world with natural predispositions for homosexuality or rape in the same way they might have a math aptitude or a liking for chocolate ice cream (despite environment and/or upbringing that would NOT cause these things, e.g. a child of English teachers going into mathematics).

    #965298
    Matan1
    Participant

    Health,

    I know what firsthand means. If you do have such evidence, would you be able to give us an example of any study or empirical evidence?

    #965299
    Health
    Participant

    JF02 -“It’s personality. People are born with personality traits. There is no such thing as a “rapist gene” or a “gay gene”, but babies come into this world with natural predispositions for homosexuality”

    Prove it!

    #965300
    Health
    Participant

    Matan1 -“Health, I know what firsthand means. If you do have such evidence, would you be able to give us an example of any study or empirical evidence?”

    Listen, I didn’t do any study, but the statements I made before were based on people I know personally. So these are facts that can’t be argued on. I don’t know if they are all like this, but I haven’t been shown any proof to the contrary. All so far that I’ve seen on YWN is just the repetition of the USA’s PC view on

    homosexuality. Everytime I ask for proof, all I get is double talk.

    If you’re looking for proof for some paper that you’re writing -you’ll find plenty of stuff from professionals on NARTH’s website. They have opinions over there from many Mental Health professionals. Maybe some of the stuff will be helpful to you.

    #965301
    benignuman
    Participant

    What difference does it make if the predisposition comes from birth or comes at a later date due to environmental influences? The point is that people who are gay are not making a conscious choice to be attracted to other men. They have a tayva, regardless of its source, and their challenge is to avoid acting on that tayva.

    #965302

    It has been scientifically determined. Of course, you never know what new discoveries may turn up– scientists used to think the world was flat. But based on the latest advanced technology, scientists have proven to a reasonable degree of certainty that homosexuality is not a choice.

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