January 10, 2022 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #2050066torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
Now that CDC Director Rochelle Walensky has said that the vaccine DOES NOT prevent transmission, (not that any person with any sort of sense needed her confirmation on this) why haven’t all democrats repealed their vaccine mandates yet? Why is this acceptable? How is this ethical? According to VAERS data, which granted may be misleading for a variety of reasons, approx 20k died from the Vaccine, with tens of more thousands seriously injured. Again, the data is likely misleading for a few reasons, but why is this okay to take away peoples jobs, say you can’t go here or there without the Vax, when the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission?? Why are people who are frankly simply scared of the government provided 20k dead number, ostracized and excluded from the community when the vaccine does not stop transmission??January 10, 2022 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2050095
I am not hugh fan of federal mandates. There are many things that feds should be doing, but on the substance of your argument:
VAERS canard is totally incongruent with all research done using controls and via historical data in multiple countries. Research discovered some complications related to myocarditis and it is well documented in terms of risk rates per age (and that risk is lower than risk of same disease from COVID).
Transmission was significantly reduced for Delta when mandates came out. You are right that the omicron seems to be transmitting more. I see only preliminary estimates that possibly transmits less but by less than Delta. So, in this sense, you are right that mandate may be less relevant.
Remaining public policy argument for vaccines is that they reduce serious hospitalization and thus stress on medical system. Paraphrasing a WSJ comment: I am a nurse for 50 years. We are all exhausted by now. Know that if you arrive here we will still take care of you, whatever your views are. But please do what you can to reduce our stress so that we can continue taking care of patients. There is also a libertarian argument – you should be free to sign a paper that you will be last in line for medical services and responsible for all medical and burial costs.
At the end, I am not sure what is our interest in discussing mandates, instead of discussing our obligations. All anti-vaccine arguments I saw here were not based on any psak, or any valid medical information, just on some website quotes, some based on gross anti-Torah notions of disregard of human life, of logic.January 10, 2022 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2050100doomsdayParticipant
AlwaysAskingQuestions: Paraphrasing a WSJ comment: I am a nurse for 50 years. We are all exhausted by now. Know that if you arrive here we will still take care of you, whatever your views are. But please do what you can to reduce our stress so that we can continue taking care of patients. There is also a libertarian argument – you should be free to sign a paper that you will be last in line for medical services and responsible for all medical and burial costs.
You are brainwashed to hate the Unvaxxed by the Democratic Party.
You have never suggested that smokers should be responsible for medical costs, or
that people who drive drunk or speed and get into car accidents should be responsible for all medical costs, or that obese should be responsible for medical costs.
No, only UnVaccinated – even though the vaccine does NOT stop one from getting infected!
You should lose your medical license – you are not fit to provide care.
You are the reason people are losing all respect for the medical profession –
learn to think CRITICALLY instead of just parroting Democratic Propaganda!January 10, 2022 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2050107GadolhadorahParticipant
“According to VAERS data, which granted may be misleading for a variety of reasons, approx 20k died from the Vaccine, with tens of more thousands seriously injured…”
Not only is the so called “VAERS data” misleading (as you acknowledge), it is entirely false and being used as part of an intentional misinformation campaign by anti-vaxers and those for whom vaccination has become a political wedge issue. However, by initially overstating vaccination benefits, the Dems have only themselves to blame for creating a fertile reception for these anti-vax lies.January 10, 2022 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2050123
Gadol > However, by initially overstating vaccination benefits,
what did they overstate? (as admitted, I am not following political statements closely, reading scientific literature takes too much time).
I think there were some things that people initially did not predict, that would be foreseeable to experts – such as decreasing antibody immunity, robust T-cell immunity, new variants with increasing propagation (that was high to begin with), inability of Bidenistas to do anything productive. Mi hu haham, haroeh es hanolad.January 10, 2022 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2050122
doomsday > You are brainwashed to hate the Unvaxxed by the Democratic Party.
Thanks for your concern. I never went to a Democrat party without N95, so I think I am protected.
I can also bet that I am not going to lose my medical license, because I am a real Dokter, not some MD that can lose a license. I can’t. But please don’t lose your respect for MDs because of me.
But, seriously, let’s share information and think critically together. To your comparisons with smkoers, etc – they are already paying more: medical for smoking and life insurance for obesity, and all pay co-pays. People at fault of accidents – their insurance pays damages and their premiums go up. The practical question is – we don’t want people to get broke from one incident and have rahmonus on them, letting them bump into several people before they lose their driving license.
But I don’t think this really matters to us here. Can we immediately affect mandates, unless we are so upset that go to demonstrations? Let’s discuss things we can do right now. We can protect vulnerable people close to us by being more careful. What are your suggestions? how do you approach this challenge that Hashem gave us? Please share, but leave politics out, this aint critical thinking.January 11, 2022 6:30 am at 6:30 am #2050160
Why is transmission the be all-end all of vaccines. seatbelts don’t prevent car accidents yet they are mandated in almost every state. If vaccines prevent serious injuries and death, even if they don’t prevent infection in the first place why is that a reason not to mandate?January 11, 2022 8:55 am at 8:55 am #2050209besalelParticipant
ubiquitin: i think the point is that there seems to be no single rule. for example, it is much more important, for children’s safety, that every child get vaccinated against the flu every year – yet society has long ago accepted that we can’t force parents to do that. why is it that when it comes to covid, all societal norms, morals and ethics have gone out the window without any real debate on the issue? higzimu.January 11, 2022 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2050217Yankel-der-ganefParticipant
This discussion is pointless, most of these people are antivaxxers bbased on random looney websites, not asking their primary care providers for advice.
We can’t fix stupid. I don’t read random websites to diagnose and determine how to cure any disease, why do it for covid.January 11, 2022 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2050222AviraDeArahParticipant
The flu is a bad example – it has never caused mass hospitalization and death. It causes between 12 and 50 thousand deaths per year (according to the CDC website), and infects about 9 million per year. Covid has caused 332,000 deaths. While omicron may be less dangerous, it will still probably increase the overall death toll by sheer number of cases. If vaccines prevent deaths and hospitalizations, then from a public policy perspective, we can understand the rationale for a mandate, especially with the vaccines now being a year old with billions of people worldwide getting it and not getting sick/dying from it.January 11, 2022 9:49 am at 9:49 am #2050221
There is never a single rule
tobacco and alcohol are legal Marijuana isn’t (federally) The reason for this distinction is largely societal and historical reason, it isn’t based yet it exists. There is never an overarching rule that applies to all cases. No man made legal system could ever accomplish that.
Each case is judged individually, sure you can show precedent one way or the other to bolster your position, but that doesn’t change anything. You bring up flu vaccines, ok sold I support mandatory flu vaccines to go to school. But just because they don;t exist doesn’t change a thing when it comes to Covid .
Yes it is largely because Covid is new and therefore more frightening. However Sick patients are picking up again. THat IS frighting and trying o prevent it is appropriate Kidneys are shutting down again just like in April 2020 (I haven’t seen this in vaccinated Patients but that is just my observation I don’t have real data)January 11, 2022 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #2050247besalelParticipant
AviraDeArah: I meant in children. Flu is more dangerous, hospitalizes more, kills more.
Ubiquitin: ive long ago been a supporter of legalizing marijuana. I don’t know if you are doing covid mandates any favor by defending them with marijuana laws that society today recognizes was a giant mistake.
Yankel der ganaf: you’re missing the point. i am pro-vax. I got vaxxed, my parents are vaxxed and my children are vaxxed. the point is if someone wants to be an idiot and not vaccinate thats their problem. they might die but that is the choice they made. why should it bother me or you.January 11, 2022 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2050249Reb EliezerParticipant
It is like children. If they don’t do it voluntarily, they must be forced.January 11, 2022 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #2050316
“ive long ago been a supporter of legalizing marijuana.”
I was replying to specific points
The OP wants to know why are there vaccine mandates if the vaccine doesn’t reduce transmission.
To which I replied that reducing transmission is not the only reason for mandates. I raised seatbelt mandates as an example
you then said “i think the point is that there seems to be no single rule”
to which I repleid correct! There isnt. creatign a single rule isnt real a goal for society. Each case is judged individually. I used marijuana as an example. I f you think that is wrong, in no way does it undermine my point that there is no universal rule for what is mandated/what is banned.
Each case is judged individually
If you think marijuana should be legal – great lobby your senator. I was not suggesting Vaccines should be mandated because marijuana is illegal
If you think Covid vaccine should be mandated support more executive actions I guess? But the fact that we dont mandate the Flu is irrelevant.January 11, 2022 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2050344
“It is like children. If they don’t do it voluntarily, they must be forced.”
I am not sure what you are responding or referring to, I have also not read through most of the posts yet.
However, the basic concept of forcing people into a specific treatment goes against the basic individual rights of autonomy. While there has been some legislation in some states with regards to vaccines, in general, it goes against medicine.
Besides, medicine is and science, in general, is evolving, what was believed to be therapeutic in the past, at times after more understanding is now believed to be detrimental, different doctors may have different opinions, so it is understandable that the individual gets to decide on getting treatment or not treated, even when their decision goes against the standard of accepted care, there is no standard that is acceptable when there is no consent from the patient.
With the Covid vaccines, it was initially marketed as something that will make Covid disappear and life will get back to normal, as we knew it. With that pretense, mandates had some context and made sense, because the lack of widespread vaccination meant that the world would be stuck in this state and vaccinating everyone, was the answer to this.
This was a false premise, the vaccines, as it stands today is not capable of eradicating the virus, maybe something will change, a better vaccine or something else may happen, but right now, while the vaccinated in general are fairing better than the unvaccinated, that does not make it more Ok to force people into any specific treatment, even if it is a prophylactic treatment.
If we were to go back to the initial reasons for vaccinating the population, it would be deemed a failure, but its ok, data gets produced, science evolves and we act accordingly, but we need to understand that its still a work in progress, we don’t have all the answers, what we thought would happen, did not happen, so forcing people into something that we haven’t yet figured out, for the mere sake that these individuals will be less likely to have severe symptoms if and when they are infected with Covid, does not make a lot of sense.
-my 2 scents.January 11, 2022 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #2050357Avi KParticipant
Far fewer vaccinated people become very sick, or even get Covid at all. This is an established fact. SCOTUS has repeatedly upheld state vaccine mandates on public health grounds. The ABA has an online article about this called “Not Breaking News: Mandatory Vaccination Has Been Constitutional for Over a Century”. A federal mandate, however, is problematic on Tenth Amendment grounds.
A real libertarian does not believe that the public should pay medical costs. A real libertarian would also not force a private insurance company to cover someone’s costs even if the person is not vaccinated.January 11, 2022 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #2050360
Love your comment very well put.
I don’t fully agree (I think forcing people to “mere sake that these individuals will be less likely to have severe symptoms if and when they are infected with Covid,” is fine. All the more so when it isn’t JUST about symptoms it is also about a strain on the health care system, that I see happening again)
Autonomy also faces a hurdle because patients don’t exist in a vacuum.
Case that happened yesterday. Transport arrived to bring an Admitted patient to dialysis. He refused he was in the middle of lunch, they came back later he “wasnt in the mood, maybe tomorrow” Of course we cannot force him.
In the afternoon, he became short of breath, labs were drawn and his potassium was quite high. now he agrees to dialysis . OIf course now the nurses are home, so the on call nurse has to come in and dialyze him. IF there is any urgent case that now needs to wait because he couldnt be bothered in the afternoon.
I don’t have a solution since Autonomy is critical, and people are allowed to change their minds. But it isnt straightforward .
I don’t have a good solution, and I’m not trying to convince you.
I mostly wanted to thank you for your excellent commentJanuary 11, 2022 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2050373🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
2scents – thank for that. I always respect your medical postings and to hear information without political jargon is a rare and welcome treat. I don’t remember if you mentioned what area of medicine you practice but you sound knowledgeable and level headed which means your patients will probably get the treatment they need whether you are rooting for it or not. Hashem should bentch you with only success!January 11, 2022 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #2050382
” I don’t remember if you mentioned what area of medicine you practice”
-Correct, I don’t believe that an anonymous online post should be based on assumed credentials, for all one knows I spent hours on a post to make it seem as if it was written by someone that deals with medical matters.
I would prefer that my posts should be accepted on the merits of their content, not as if they were written by an authority.
I do the same when I read posts written by other people, I accept the content as is, unless I know the author and respect them as an authority.January 11, 2022 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #2050390
“I don’t have a solution since Autonomy is critical, and people are allowed to change their minds. But it isnt straightforward .”
-100%, it is very complex and as you mentioned poor decision-making strains the healthcare system and in return, it hurts others that need the system.
This is also a complicated halacha question, do we have autonomy in a religious sense or just in a secular sense? What if someone was diagnosed with a heart attack, the accepted standard of care would be to remove the occlusion, and in return, they are expected to lead an otherwise normal life. However, for some odd reason, the patient refuses further care, which may result in death or permanent complicated heart failure. I believe that such a patient is obligated, in a religious sense to seek the appropriate care.
Prophylactic care, such as acquired immunity (vaccines), has been accepted as a mainstay in medicine. But the Covid19 vaccine is still being worked out, we are not sure how it compares with regards to natural immunity, or those with elevated titers.
Furthermore, if the increased strain on the health care system (partially a consequence of the vaccine mandates, as the already understaffed facilities now had to fire valuable staff) is only temporary, such as until the current wave resides, if hospitalization levels were to fall to acceptable levels, will the mandates be re-evaluated?
Lastly, while I am a strong proponent of any efforts to fight this virus by all means, including vaccinations. Patient (human) autonomy is a very serious matter, I would shudder to think if my consent would not matter if I were to be a patient. This is why I tried making my point that medical-related mandates are dangerous, it’s like a slippery slope, good intentions but hard to draw the line once implemented.January 11, 2022 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2050405🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
wow, sounds like something i said rubbed you wrong. Not sure what or why but sorry nonetheless. My comment about the area of practice was tied to my next comment. That I don’t know if you deal with covid patients or not but …
Also not sure what separates content from authority. When a statistician posts endless health tips it reads differently than when someone dealing in health posts them. I don’t think I consider doctors as having ‘authority’ per say, just more authenticity regarding medicine. And of course everything is taken with a grain of salt, but some leave you scratching your head and some leave you with food for thought.
Again, sorry.January 11, 2022 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #2050415Yserbius123Participant
Forget mandates, VAERS, transmission rates, death rates, co-morbidity, Democrats, Republicans, and all the other buzzwords being thrown at us. There’s a simple solution to all of this: as your doctor.
Most of you have a primary care doctor. One that you’re had since before COVID that you go to when you’re sick. Or even a pediatrician when your kids are sick. Or even a specialist who you go to for some specific thing. Ask him or her if you should get yourself, and/or your kids, vaccinated. That’s all!January 11, 2022 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #2050420
we have a related case in halakha of “almost” forcing someone to do the right thing despite the explicit autonomy – beat up the husband until he says “I _want_ to give a get”. Is this because another person is affected?
If you hold by the above analogy, presuming there are some consequences of non-vaccination for other people (taxing hospitals, reducing transmission even somewhat – and more for Delta that was out there at least as of last week), then nudging them – require for jobs, flying, eating out – is ok and is not the same as vaccinating by force.January 11, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2050435
“ wow, sounds like something i said rubbed you wrong”.
Not at all, I was just trying to explain myself, I didnt feel “rubbed” by your polite inquiry.January 11, 2022 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2050439
Re “nudging”, who is providing guidance to this? Government officials or public health officials?January 11, 2022 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #2050442
Yeserbius > Most of you have a primary care doctor. One that you’re had since before COVID that you go to when you’re sick.
You are right. To my best knowledge, none of the anti-vaxers (or any other anti-anything) here quoted their doctors. Still, asking a doctor in an emerging situation has limits (I presume you have a garden-variety primary doctor, not on university faculty):
1) As R Meir Twersky wrote – we value life more than the general culture, or in a case of great uncertainty: ask several doctors and take the safest approach. It is called “robust estimation”, I am pretty impressed by R Twersky’s approach here.
2) Doctor will give you a conservative answer and will follow general policy that may be behind times at current speed. I asked about a particular covid action my, pretty experienced in other aspects, doctor – he said that there is no recommendation “yet” for my situation. So, I acted on my own, and he called me two months later saying that the recommendation arrived (to do what I did). In another case, he said “we only do it for research subject, I can’t order it within the system, there is no button” (that is, yes, it is important but the system does not let me do it).
This is practical – as in latest Omicron craze, maybe people who got infected en masse lately – would not if they would take action earlier. In my area, suddenly everyone is in serious masks in some stores – 2 weeks after they should have.January 11, 2022 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #2050444
“ But, seriously, let’s share information and think critically together. To your comparisons with smkoers, etc – they are already paying more: medical for smoking and life insurance for obesity, and all pay co-pays. People at fault of accidents – their insurance pays damages and their premiums go up.”
With regards to insurance, I do not think that premiums are linked to peoples behaviors or prior medical conditions. Especially when they are enrolled in company insurance policies.
Better would be, if people are given incentives to lead healthier lives and make better health decisions. Such as reductions in insurance policies for maintaining a good BMI or for being enrolled and actually showing up to gym a couple of times a week. Being fully vaccinated can also be considered, like this the insurance companies will have a healthier customer base, with less expenses.
Its not going to happen, its not how things are set up. But that would be a bit more solution oriented and beneficial to all parties.January 11, 2022 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #2050459torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
Yerbius123-I wish democrats would agree with you.
Ubi-Isn’t an individual entitled to a second opinion when it comes to his wellbeing? You comparison isn’t accurate. I don’t believe there are any experts out there who think a seatbelt poses any threat. There is certainly no big government-provided number of deaths that resulted from wearing a seatbelt. What drives someone not to wear a seatbelt is pure laziness. And there are no alternative therapeutics that can be as effective as a seatbelt. When it comes to Covid, there are many alternative therapeutics that can reduce the chance of death (specifically when we’re dealing with teenagers, and to some degree when dealing with older age groups) from almost zero to virtually zero. Can you imagine if the CDC would put out guidelines for dealing with every specific illness and ailment, the way they see fit, with no one being allowed to discuss various alternative options with their doctors? Bishlama if one taking the vaccine provided a PUBLIC health benefit, I can *somewhat* hear the grounds to mandate the vax, but being that that is no longer the case, the subject of taking the vaccine should be solely discussed between everyone and their doctor.January 11, 2022 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #2050460
2scesnts, mathematically this is the same – punishing for bad behaviors or rewarding for good. Possibly incentives work better, I agree. And they are done already by some insurances or self-insured companies. As to insurances, as I mentioned, Obamacare allows charging for smoking. Company insurances simply bundle for a group. When my employees get a lot of medicine used, my price goes up next year. If the salaries would be lower and insurance be a big part of compensation, I would probably not be hiring smokers and other health abusers just on the cost alone.January 12, 2022 12:57 am at 12:57 am #2050512Yserbius123Participant
@torahvaluesoverparty I do believe that the current Democrat and Trump narrative is much closer to what I suggested than the hard-right Republicans, even if it isn’t 100%. They ask their doctors and listen to their advice.
What did your doctor tell you?
@always_ask_questions I like the idea of asking multiple experts for their opinion, but I’m afraid it’s just going to lead to shopping around for a good answer. Like how some not so erliche Yidden will ask every Rov until they find one who is meikel. But if you’re going to ask around, it has to be done right. You can’t start emailing some doctor in Jamaica because you watched his videos or whatever. You have to go to the doctors you know and trust.January 12, 2022 1:01 am at 1:01 am #2050523
Quebec is announcing a tax on unvaccinated, motivated by healthcare cost. They are saying that unvaxxed 10% are taking 50% of ICUs. Given their “free” medicine, it is essentially saying that unvaxxed should pay for insurance for the additional risk. Any Canadians here?January 12, 2022 5:06 am at 5:06 am #2050543
We always argue here about whether something does not work. Why not look at successes and see if we can emulate? Not going to other countries, but stats consistently show that “Asians” have 1/3 of casualties than other groups. I don’t know what exactly is the reason – their useless vaccinating or their masks that do not work, or Chinese food, or they are all introverts and WFH – but they are doing something right. Can we find it out what and do the same?January 12, 2022 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2050640
“Ubi-Isn’t an individual entitled to a second opinion when it comes to his wellbeing?”
Yes, I’m not sure what thsi is in reference too
“You comparison isn’t accurate. I don’t believe there are any experts out there who think a seatbelt poses any threat”
Of course there are. Its a big planet there is everything out there. Granted you probably (correctly) disregard the opinion of thsoe who think seatbelts pose a risk but guess what when it comes to vaccines…
And again you are getting caught up in specifics same mistake as Besalel made. No vacciens and seatblets are not exactly the same.
But the idea that Government mandates things that serve to protect the individual even with no risk to the public , is there .
You can argue that in this case it is a bit of an overstep (like 2scents did)
But the idea that the ONLY reason for a mandate is to prevent transmission doesnt hold upJanuary 12, 2022 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2050814
from Megila Daf:
Beis din used to send inspectors and fine people who did not take care of kilaim first thing in the spring. Not sure, is this concern about community (would resulting fruit be not kosher?) or are we coercing people in doing their mitzvos?
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