Vaccine Mandates

I am not hugh fan of federal mandates. There are many things that feds should be doing, but on the substance of your argument:

VAERS canard is totally incongruent with all research done using controls and via historical data in multiple countries. Research discovered some complications related to myocarditis and it is well documented in terms of risk rates per age (and that risk is lower than risk of same disease from COVID).

Transmission was significantly reduced for Delta when mandates came out. You are right that the omicron seems to be transmitting more. I see only preliminary estimates that possibly transmits less but by less than Delta. So, in this sense, you are right that mandate may be less relevant.

Remaining public policy argument for vaccines is that they reduce serious hospitalization and thus stress on medical system. Paraphrasing a WSJ comment: I am a nurse for 50 years. We are all exhausted by now. Know that if you arrive here we will still take care of you, whatever your views are. But please do what you can to reduce our stress so that we can continue taking care of patients. There is also a libertarian argument – you should be free to sign a paper that you will be last in line for medical services and responsible for all medical and burial costs.

At the end, I am not sure what is our interest in discussing mandates, instead of discussing our obligations. All anti-vaccine arguments I saw here were not based on any psak, or any valid medical information, just on some website quotes, some based on gross anti-Torah notions of disregard of human life, of logic.

“According to VAERS data, which granted may be misleading for a variety of reasons, approx 20k died from the Vaccine, with tens of more thousands seriously injured…”
Not only is the so called “VAERS data” misleading (as you acknowledge), it is entirely false and being used as part of an intentional misinformation campaign by anti-vaxers and those for whom vaccination has become a political wedge issue. However, by initially overstating vaccination benefits, the Dems have only themselves to blame for creating a fertile reception for these anti-vax lies.

doomsday > You are brainwashed to hate the Unvaxxed by the Democratic Party.

Thanks for your concern. I never went to a Democrat party without N95, so I think I am protected.
I can also bet that I am not going to lose my medical license, because I am a real Dokter, not some MD that can lose a license. I can’t. But please don’t lose your respect for MDs because of me.

But, seriously, let’s share information and think critically together. To your comparisons with smkoers, etc – they are already paying more: medical for smoking and life insurance for obesity, and all pay co-pays. People at fault of accidents – their insurance pays damages and their premiums go up. The practical question is – we don’t want people to get broke from one incident and have rahmonus on them, letting them bump into several people before they lose their driving license.

But I don’t think this really matters to us here. Can we immediately affect mandates, unless we are so upset that go to demonstrations? Let’s discuss things we can do right now. We can protect vulnerable people close to us by being more careful. What are your suggestions? how do you approach this challenge that Hashem gave us? Please share, but leave politics out, this aint critical thinking.

ubiquitin: i think the point is that there seems to be no single rule. for example, it is much more important, for children’s safety, that every child get vaccinated against the flu every year – yet society has long ago accepted that we can’t force parents to do that. why is it that when it comes to covid, all societal norms, morals and ethics have gone out the window without any real debate on the issue? higzimu.

The flu is a bad example – it has never caused mass hospitalization and death. It causes between 12 and 50 thousand deaths per year (according to the CDC website), and infects about 9 million per year. Covid has caused 332,000 deaths. While omicron may be less dangerous, it will still probably increase the overall death toll by sheer number of cases. If vaccines prevent deaths and hospitalizations, then from a public policy perspective, we can understand the rationale for a mandate, especially with the vaccines now being a year old with billions of people worldwide getting it and not getting sick/dying from it.

AviraDeArah: I meant in children. Flu is more dangerous, hospitalizes more, kills more.

Ubiquitin: ive long ago been a supporter of legalizing marijuana. I don’t know if you are doing covid mandates any favor by defending them with marijuana laws that society today recognizes was a giant mistake.

Yankel der ganaf: you’re missing the point. i am pro-vax. I got vaxxed, my parents are vaxxed and my children are vaxxed. the point is if someone wants to be an idiot and not vaccinate thats their problem. they might die but that is the choice they made. why should it bother me or you.

“ive long ago been a supporter of legalizing marijuana.”

Mazel tov

I was replying to specific points

The OP wants to know why are there vaccine mandates if the vaccine doesn’t reduce transmission.

To which I replied that reducing transmission is not the only reason for mandates. I raised seatbelt mandates as an example

you then said “i think the point is that there seems to be no single rule”
to which I repleid correct! There isnt. creatign a single rule isnt real a goal for society. Each case is judged individually. I used marijuana as an example. I f you think that is wrong, in no way does it undermine my point that there is no universal rule for what is mandated/what is banned.
Each case is judged individually

If you think marijuana should be legal – great lobby your senator. I was not suggesting Vaccines should be mandated because marijuana is illegal

If you think Covid vaccine should be mandated support more executive actions I guess? But the fact that we dont mandate the Flu is irrelevant.

Far fewer vaccinated people become very sick, or even get Covid at all. This is an established fact. SCOTUS has repeatedly upheld state vaccine mandates on public health grounds. The ABA has an online article about this called “Not Breaking News: Mandatory Vaccination Has Been Constitutional for Over a Century”. A federal mandate, however, is problematic on Tenth Amendment grounds.

A real libertarian does not believe that the public should pay medical costs. A real libertarian would also not force a private insurance company to cover someone’s costs even if the person is not vaccinated.

2scents – thank for that. I always respect your medical postings and to hear information without political jargon is a rare and welcome treat. I don’t remember if you mentioned what area of medicine you practice but you sound knowledgeable and level headed which means your patients will probably get the treatment they need whether you are rooting for it or not. Hashem should bentch you with only success!

ubiq,

“I don’t have a solution since Autonomy is critical, and people are allowed to change their minds. But it isnt straightforward .”

-100%, it is very complex and as you mentioned poor decision-making strains the healthcare system and in return, it hurts others that need the system.

This is also a complicated halacha question, do we have autonomy in a religious sense or just in a secular sense? What if someone was diagnosed with a heart attack, the accepted standard of care would be to remove the occlusion, and in return, they are expected to lead an otherwise normal life. However, for some odd reason, the patient refuses further care, which may result in death or permanent complicated heart failure. I believe that such a patient is obligated, in a religious sense to seek the appropriate care.

Prophylactic care, such as acquired immunity (vaccines), has been accepted as a mainstay in medicine. But the Covid19 vaccine is still being worked out, we are not sure how it compares with regards to natural immunity, or those with elevated titers.

Furthermore, if the increased strain on the health care system (partially a consequence of the vaccine mandates, as the already understaffed facilities now had to fire valuable staff) is only temporary, such as until the current wave resides, if hospitalization levels were to fall to acceptable levels, will the mandates be re-evaluated?

Lastly, while I am a strong proponent of any efforts to fight this virus by all means, including vaccinations. Patient (human) autonomy is a very serious matter, I would shudder to think if my consent would not matter if I were to be a patient. This is why I tried making my point that medical-related mandates are dangerous, it’s like a slippery slope, good intentions but hard to draw the line once implemented.

Forget mandates, VAERS, transmission rates, death rates, co-morbidity, Democrats, Republicans, and all the other buzzwords being thrown at us. There’s a simple solution to all of this: as your doctor.

Most of you have a primary care doctor. One that you’re had since before COVID that you go to when you’re sick. Or even a pediatrician when your kids are sick. Or even a specialist who you go to for some specific thing. Ask him or her if you should get yourself, and/or your kids, vaccinated. That’s all!

Syag,

“ wow, sounds like something i said rubbed you wrong”.

Not at all, I was just trying to explain myself, I didnt feel “rubbed” by your polite inquiry.

Yeserbius > Most of you have a primary care doctor. One that you’re had since before COVID that you go to when you’re sick.

You are right. To my best knowledge, none of the anti-vaxers (or any other anti-anything) here quoted their doctors. Still, asking a doctor in an emerging situation has limits (I presume you have a garden-variety primary doctor, not on university faculty):

1) As R Meir Twersky wrote – we value life more than the general culture, or in a case of great uncertainty: ask several doctors and take the safest approach. It is called “robust estimation”, I am pretty impressed by R Twersky’s approach here.

2) Doctor will give you a conservative answer and will follow general policy that may be behind times at current speed. I asked about a particular covid action my, pretty experienced in other aspects, doctor – he said that there is no recommendation “yet” for my situation. So, I acted on my own, and he called me two months later saying that the recommendation arrived (to do what I did). In another case, he said “we only do it for research subject, I can’t order it within the system, there is no button” (that is, yes, it is important but the system does not let me do it).

This is practical – as in latest Omicron craze, maybe people who got infected en masse lately – would not if they would take action earlier. In my area, suddenly everyone is in serious masks in some stores – 2 weeks after they should have.

@torahvaluesoverparty I do believe that the current Democrat and Trump narrative is much closer to what I suggested than the hard-right Republicans, even if it isn’t 100%. They ask their doctors and listen to their advice.

What did your doctor tell you?

@always_ask_questions I like the idea of asking multiple experts for their opinion, but I’m afraid it’s just going to lead to shopping around for a good answer. Like how some not so erliche Yidden will ask every Rov until they find one who is meikel. But if you’re going to ask around, it has to be done right. You can’t start emailing some doctor in Jamaica because you watched his videos or whatever. You have to go to the doctors you know and trust.

We always argue here about whether something does not work. Why not look at successes and see if we can emulate? Not going to other countries, but stats consistently show that “Asians” have 1/3 of casualties than other groups. I don’t know what exactly is the reason – their useless vaccinating or their masks that do not work, or Chinese food, or they are all introverts and WFH – but they are doing something right. Can we find it out what and do the same?

from Megila Daf:
Beis din used to send inspectors and fine people who did not take care of kilaim first thing in the spring. Not sure, is this concern about community (would resulting fruit be not kosher?) or are we coercing people in doing their mitzvos?