Vaccines and the Shidduch Crisis

Is it proper to recommend what is best for public policy even if it may be bad advice for different individuals?

There are people who are saying they will not consider a shidduch with a boy or girl who took the new technology COVID-19 vaccine. Even if you totally don’t agree with this, people should know that taking the vaccine may complicate shidduchim for them. It has not been proven to NOT affect fertility and there is reason to believe that it might affect them based on some anecdotal stories coming out so far. We don’t have enough real life data about this yet…. Even if some doctors debunked the theory on paper… there’s still ongoing trials with this vaccine… Isreal is the world’s lab..

” It has not been proven to NOT affect fertility and there is reason to believe that it might affect them based on some anecdotal stories coming out so…”
Hey Tristate: Its also NOT been proven that yidden who have not been vaccinated and exposed to Covid will NOT suffer long-term mental health affects as exhibited by unnamed individuals posting such stupidity about fertility etc. A baas yisroel who has been vaccinated will be very fortunate not to even have to deal with some idiots who are vaccine skeptics since THEY are the ones who will sadly suffer long-term adverse consequences.

People who are pro-vax in general are saying they don’t want to take a chance with this vaccine. All my kids are vaccinated as I am and I even took the flu vaccine one year. This is different… If you’re afraid of getting covid, take ivermectin as a prophylactic. It works.

I find it breathtaking that some of those CR posters who routinely bash anyone who goes against daas torah and flames anyone who disagrees with gadolei yisroel as apikorsim, somehow have given themselves a special heter to contradict those same gadolim about whom we read here on the news pages almost daily, have demanded all their talmidim get the vaccine.

What i mean is, nobody here said not to vaccinate so who are you talking about?

So you are saying that R’ Chaim is being manipulated and will say whatever some gabbai will whisper in his ear?? If thats the case,, why would anyone feel any obligation to listen to anything that comes out in his name??
I don’t think so. I’m sure if you search long enough, you can find some rebbelah somewhere who is anti-vaxer. Chabad found one and promptly cut off his affiliations . The vast majority of rabbonim who have spoken on the issue as well as frum medical professionals are strongly urging everyone to be vaccinated.

Honestly, I heard enough first hand stories from the vax, that I feel very comfortable not taking the vaccine and waiting for more data while doing safer prophylaxis options right now… Each person has to make their own risk – benefit analysis

ujm: You have Gedolim on both sides.

I am with GH here. So, you are using a reference to unnamed gedolim and will only follow them when there is an anonymous opinion?! and if not, you’ll do whatever you want? Is there a specific Rav you are following on this?

Same question for tristate – did you ask? video? what is the date on the video?

@tristate-jew Your first mistake is assuming there are two sides to this argument. There aren’t. There’s the side of rationality and the side of fear. Either rationally accept the data that the risks of the vaccine are extremely slim compared to the risks of not taking it, or give in to the fear of the unknown and promote that fear because of something you don’t understand.

Why take any risk — which are not slim at all — check out the over 14,000 adverse events on vaers — and why should I? There are much safer and more effective ways to prevent getting covid. The vaccine will need a booster in a short while and they are not even promising you won’t catch or transmit covid. They are saying you may need another shot for variants. I’d rather take high levels of vitamin D and ivermectin. Who needs to take the risk? Ivermectin works for any virus – so variants don’t matter. Every day I hear more stories of ppl who died shortly after taking the vaccine — sometimes from first hand sources. Why would I even take that chance – as slim as it may be?

At some point, you just have to step back and allow those who are seemingly intent on providing full employment to the chevrah kadishah to have their way. If some want to advertise their anti-vax insanity on a “shidduch resume”, one would hope that any reputable shadchan would tear it up and never return their calls.

If we can put aside the covid, masks piece (and as i am sure you forgot, I’ve neveradvocated against wearing masks) i have to say the most shocking thing for me is to see parts of the community who i respected as ehrlich and committed even tho in a different way then me, jumping at any and every chance to override halachik obligations and even resort to MESIRA! even when the science does not support it.

Israel now reports that 90% of hospitalized are those who did not yet vaccinate. This is a picture in transition while some are partially vaccinated.

I think when US reaches same levels, the issue will resolve: priovate and Obamacare insurance will start asking for vaccination status, workplaces and schools will to. It is really issue of social convention. Right now, schools ask for flu vaccine even when kids do not go to school, and it is considered normal.

DY, Mrs. Syag,
let’s go step-by-step so I can understand your logic.

There are numerous cases and groups of people who disregard DS and masks in their shuls and schools, and who disregard state mask orders. I am excluding gray areas here. Many people, including myself, see them, and they are all over photos, and the photos are not all done by evil chilonim. Do you agree with that?

The fact that these people contributed to extra deaths seems to be straight-forwards from statistics. Do you agree?

You can argue that some communities live in small urban dwellings, etc. This is a reason not to accuse people wholesale based on statistics, but this is not a reason not to be careful, just the opposite.

Is there an over-reaction on the other side? I don’t see it, but will be happy to discuss. I personally just go around un-masked people. I have to admit that I was ready to use a chair or a foot to clear space when unmasked Hamans showed up at the end of Purim davening with their gifts – but just the look worked.

DY, to clarify: the question was during a lockdown in that state, when the activity is question was against the rules. It was an oral ruling, not in writing. Similarly, at the same early time, R Heinemann responded to a question whether one can do minyanim with people standing on different porches, etc to stay within the rules. His response – a passerby will not delve into minute details, he will just know that Jews are doing something questionable – and then, some Jew may be denied a ventilator because of that. Using this criterion, our current minyan is OK: a passerby snapped a picture of us during a snow day and – when I looked – showed a thumbs up.

DY >> many fine talmidei chachomim who have always been responsible leaders agree on not obsessing over Covid to the level you have,

A good question, except please strike down ” to the level you have”. These talmidei chachamim may be wrong, and in some cases, they changed their opinions over time, but most importantly, they need to deal with their followers and their capabilities and limitations. I can see, to simplify, the following logic: if those children do not go to yeshiva, they will go to other places, and the whole community will disintegrate. So, I don’t need to make a judgment about their judgment.

I am talking specifically about an individual. It is not material for him that someone permitted Covid kulos for the community. If this person is not behaving as a Talmid Chacham immediately (“at night”, using Gemora language) – fine, everyone can make a mistake in a situation, but if he does not stop (“in the morning”), then he is not a Talmid Chacham.

Important statistical question – how correlated is mask rejection and vaccine rejection? are these independent issues in people’s minds or do we have same people denying everything?

why is it important? say, 20% of people refuse each of them. If these are the same people, then you can expect pandemic to continue raging at 5x lower level. If these issues are independent, then only 4% of population (0.2*0.2) will be fully unprotected and we can expect significant reductions at the end…

Argument for independence – people are bring unrelated reasons for each of the rejections. Argument for correlation – the reasons are excuses, and the rejection in both cases is based on distrust of science and authorities, independent character, ignorance, lack of empathy.
Can we take a vote on 2 issues at the same time:

reluctance to wear masks and to take a vaccine from 0 to 10?
mine: 0 and 2

>> What are your “hard numbers” on the effectiveness of masks?

Look at Jeremy Howard, et al An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19 published in PNAS Jan 2021. A review of various studies.

The issue includes more than masks – SD, air flow, HVAC. It is clear that all of these significantly reduce risk. My sources include multiple articles on airflow simulation, discussions with a distinguished aerospace engineer, and my own experiments measuring airflows in several rooms, including a shul under controlled conditions (with/without people; with windows/doors opened, far/near vents).

>> rav’s opinion, which was that distanced outdoor minyanim are so unreasonable

I’ll put aside considerations of hillul Hashem and following the laws, as we are focused here on things that can be proved by objective research. for this purposes, I am applying this psak to those cases where objective research can be applied.