- This topic has 110 replies, 29 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I believe with the recent (and ongoing) measles outbreak it is high time to have a frank discussion about vaccines and the Frum community.
The problem is that there is nothing to discuss. Vaccinations save lives, and those who don’t give them to their children rely on possible minor side effects (such as a cold for the day), discredited reports regarding autism, or the say-so of a “Gadol” (or his wife, who have been instrumental in killing the concept of Da’as Torah for many people). They are “true believers”, who similar to missionaries, are not interested in hearing the truth.
So what should be done? Many schools/camps already do not allow children who do not have their vaccinations. However, some schools will still accept such children with a “note” from a “doctor” or “rabbi” that says the child can’t be vaccinated (of which anyone who gives such a note is neither). This should stop, as the school knows there is no such justification. Furthermore, any school that does take in such a child will have to answer to the RBSO when (not if) someone gets CV sick or even dies due to this child.
The other thing that must be done is for us to protect our own children. Even vaccination does not give 100% certain immunity (and relies on “herd immunity”), and your child may CV get measles or worse from someone who is not vaccinated (although in the latest outbreak, only non-vaccinated children have gotten sick). In addition, children under a year (or six months now) are at risk from those who aren’t vaccinated. YOU need to make sure that your children avoid such families, for the health and lives of your children.
Finally, the fact that the national media has picked up on this (links are not allowed, but you can google “measles” and “brooklyn”) has made this into a Chillul Shem Shomayim, that Yidden don’t care enough about their children to vaccinate them.
I look forward to your thoughts.
P.S. If you don’t vaccinate your children, I’m interested to hear why not. (Also I’d like to make sure that no one in my family has any contact with you or your children).
If you search “Measles outbreak hits Brooklyn’s Ultra-Orthodox community” on examiner.com, you can see a thorough article I wrote on the subject.
There is overall a good deal of friction between certain members of our community and public health, sadly. Not only with measles, but also with herpes (mbp), school nutrition requirements, and other issues, as well.
Congratulations, now everyone knows who you are. Mods, is this really appropriate?
Jewsih feminist,
What is the issue if he is ok with people knowing who he is?
JF is correct, Posters should not be able to out themselves like that
I post under my real name and make no secret of who I am or where I work.
The OP is correct. There is almost never any reason to avoid vaccinating your children. None of the vaccines used today in the US carry a high probability of any major risk any more. And the diseases they prevent can cause death, permanent intellectual disability, permanent paralysis, deafness, sterility, and a host of other problems.
I point out in my article that the failure to vaccinate can and should be understood in the broader context of antipathy to public health programs among some sectors of our community.
This is a shame, since the public health field generally considers Vayikra to be an early example of a religious code dealing with a fairly advanced conception of public health/epidemiological concerns (i.e. isolation and quarantine for tza’arat reflects an advanced understanding of public health in the holiness code).
Making not vaccinating your kids into a ideological/theological issue is just plain wrong. Perhaps some people buy into the anti-vaccine hogwash, but in Brooklyn at least, religion does not come into play as far as I know. Others may be “farshlept” but call a spade a spade, and don’t blame “shunning science on principle” either. Yes, we have large close knit families and communities that may speed transmission, but don’t turn this into another reason to “blame the zealots”. This is not productive at all, and is reminiscent of Rabbi Tendler’s article on this subject. We don’t have lower vaccination rates according to the DOH.
Also, to the OP, I was always under the impression that a PARENT can object to vaccinating his/her kids, and if given such a statement in writing the school must legally accept it. Am I wrong?
Thank you Dr for opening this thread. I know you feel very strongly about this issue, but the first sentence in the second paragraph states “The problem is that there is nothing to discuss”, wow , why is there nothing to discuss? I know why , because if there would be something to discuss you would be afraid of the outcome. Too many people would become educated and find out that G-d did create our body in the most marvelous way.
We make the blessing ” asher Yotar es ha’adam b’chochmah”, don’t you believe that our body is created perfectly?
“The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous and ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization…..There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease.”–Dr Robert Mendelsohn,
read his book called “Male Practice, how doctors manipulate women”. It will hopefully break your belief in the religion of modern medicine.
The herd immunity theory was originally coined in 1933 by a researcher called Hedrich. He had been studying measles patterns in the US between 1900-1931 (years before any vaccine was ever invented for measles) and he observed that epidemics of the illness only occurred when less than 68% of children had developed a natural immunity to it. This was based upon the principle that children build their own immunity after suffering with or being exposed to the disease. So the herd immunity theory was, in fact, about natural disease processes and nothing to do with vaccination. If 68% of the population were allowed to build their own natural defenses, there would be no raging epidemic.
(MONTHLY ESTIMATES OF THE CHILD POPULATION “SUSCEPTIBLE’ TO MEASLES, 1900-1931, BALTIMORE, MD, AW HEDRICH, American Journal of Epidemiology, May 1933 – Oxford University Press).
One more thing Doc, did you get the fifth disease vaccine or the scarlet fever vaccine, no? you must be carrying it and can infect others, so I don’t want to be around you. Oh, I did forget that the vaccines are not available yet, so there is no need to scare anyone yet because we cant do anything about it anyways, but as soon as a vaccine is on the market, don’t worry , we will hear all about the people who died from fifth disease. Fear sells, and your doing a great job selling fear, but educated people don’t fear G-ds creations called viruses, because we know they have a place in this world.
I will end with this quote from Dr Mendelsohn:
“There are significant risks associated with every immunization and numerous contraindictions that may make it dangerous for the shots to be given to your child….There is growing suspicion that immunization against relatively harmless childhood diseases may be responsible for the dramatic increase in autoimmune diseases since mass inoculations were introduced. These are fearful diseases such as cancer, leukemia, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease, lupus erthematosus, and the Guillain-Barre syndrome.” Dr Mendelsohn, M.D.
Rabbi Dr. Tendler ought to be heeded. He is a man of great halakhic knowledge and immense scientific knowledge, as well. If believing in scientific truths is a crime, count me guilty. Public health is a great interest of mine, and it is of immense importance in promoting a society where people enjoy overall wellbeing and improved economic, lifestyle, and wellness indicators.
Rabbi Dr. Tendler ought to be heeded. He is a man of great halakhic knowledge and immense scientific knowledge, as well.
heh heh. Him saying it is a reason to not do it.
He truly confounds me. One wonders why if he thinks something is so urgent and so important as to warrant malshinus, that he hasn’t managed to convince other rabbonim of the importance. He certainly has access to gedolim to try to convince, since they are his brother’s in law.
To chance:
There is no vaccine for scarlet fever because it is not a virus. It is a regular Streptococcus bacterial infection that happens to affect the entire body, resulting in a red rash and giving the body a reddish appearance.
My daughter had it when she was a child (as did I myself). Doctor prescribed Penicillin/Amoxicillin and told me to keep her home for a week since apparently if the bacteria affects the whole body in this manner it is a longer recovery than from a simple Strep throat and there are complications, such as hepatitis and rheumatic fever, that are not usually associated with Strep throat.
I had scarlet fever when I was very little, I was quite ill but correct, there is no vaccine.
Chance, copy and pasting various articles by different Doctors isn’t going to prove to us anything. The truth is, those who don’t vaccinate their children should be held responsible when other children get sick as a result. I was a little weary of giving my son his 12 month shots, I bought into the autism scare for about 4 minutes, even though before I had never been a believer in that. I did my research, talked to many, many doctors, and realized that it is just plain false. It is now reccomended that children/babies in the Brooklyn area get the MMR vaccine at 6 months instead of the usual 1 year..it’s that serious. People should value the lives of their children and see that Hashem gave us these beautiful scientific miracles and we should take full advantage.
<b>”The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous and ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization…..There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease.”–Dr Robert Mendelsohn</b>
That statement is flat out wrong, and anyone who says that is either grossly mis informed or is flat out lying. First of all there is overwhelming evidence that immunisation has eliminated Smallpox from the world, and has brought levels of Polio, Diphtheria, Pertussis, Rubella, Tetanus and others down in the USA between 90% and 99%.
For example the average pre immunisation anual morbidity (IE people who got sick) of Rubella was around 47,000, last year it was 4. (not 4,000 but 4). My father tells me that when he was a boy people were terrified of Polio, it could paralyse or kill you, and infected about 16,000 people annually, it has not been seen in the USA in years and is now restricted to a few corners of India, Pakistan, and Nigeria. Due to the hard work of the Gates foundation and others it is expected it will be gone from the world by 2020. [numbers are from the CDC]
Chance
“don’t you believe that our body is created perfectly?”
Your “argument” is an argument against ever going to a doctor or getting medical treatment.
And besides dont you believe that God created vaccines
RebDoniel: wow, the only thing you took from my comment was Rabbi Tendler’s name. Your article echoes his, which is why I referenced it. I never said to shun science and not vaccinate. Rabbi Tendler is arguing that the religious community is clueless and uneducated and therefore doesn’t vaccinate enough, based on his own prejudices WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE. And you are combining unrelated issues to make religious Jews appear at odds with the Health Dept., which is not the case here. Yes, they aren’t perfect when it comes to vaccines, but neither is the general populace. This is not constructive criticism, it’s simply tearing down a community you know very little about.
Okay, I googled and found this about NY law:
“Section 2164 of the Public Health Law permits the following two exemptions to this mandatory immunization requirement:
(1) If the parent objects to the immunization because the parent holds genuine and sincere religious beliefs which are contrary to the requirement that the child be immunized; or
Religious Exemptions
If you are seeking a religious exemption for your child, you must provide a written explanation of the foundations for your religious belief opposing immunization. In your own words, describe the religious principles that guide your objection to immunization. Also, indicate whether you are opposed to all immunizations, and if not, the religious basis that prohibits particular immunizations.”
So apparently I was only partially right as a parent can object but only on religious grounds. (In other words, simply being “smarter” than the accepted medical community is not sufficient.) If it’s due to medical reasons the letter must come from a doctor.
Scarlet fever is a completely different matzav.
Baruch Hashem, we now have antibiotics and penicillin.
In around 1925, my grandfather’s brother and sister died of scarlet fever. His other brother then developed life-threatening complications that are still a problem to this day.
In 2008, my little brother had scarlet fever. He was on antibiotics for ten days, was up and feeling fine in three.
Modern medicine is truly one of the niflaos haBorei.
There is no such medication for measles, mumps, etc. They’re viruses- you take two Advil and hope for the best. As soon as you draw comparisons like that you lose your credibility.
Nobody’s inventing fatality statistics- go look up the polio pandemic in the forties and fifties. And vaccines work- polio is now virtually eradicated from the US. Doctors aren’t even taught to recognize the symptoms of diphtheria anymore, it’s so rare now that there’s a vaccine.
The Asher yatzar es ha’adam bechochma argument is a paraphrase of an argument that the goyim tried to use against the Mitzvah of bris Mila.
“Whose creations are greater, G-d’s or man’s? If you say G-d’s, then why do you try to improve on His creation by cutting some away?”
The Asher yatzar es ha’adam bechochma argument is a paraphrase of an argument that the goyim tried to use against the Mitzvah of bris Mila.
“Whose creations are greater, G-d’s or man’s? If you say G-d’s, then why do you try to improve on His creation by cutting some away?”
gavra- It’s true in New York. I remember one year my mother couldn’t get me and my sister a doctors appointment for before school started, and school wouldn’t allow us to start the year without getting vaccinated. My mother sent in a note that she refuses to get us vaccinated just that we shouldn’t have to miss school for the two weeks until our appointment. We were able to attend school for those two weeks just fine.
To ubiquitin “And besides dont you believe that God created vaccines”, God created the virus , people created the vaccines, I would rather take a chance with Gods creations, than with man made dangerous concoction of chemicals.
A parent doesn’t have to vaccinate their child in order to go to school.
To Nechoma You said There is no vaccine for scarlet fever because it is not a virus. It is a regular Streptococcus bacterial infection that happens to affect the entire body, resulting in a red rash and giving the body a reddish appearance.
Just for your info, the whooping cough is also caused by bacteria.
That is correct. It’s interesting that the Conservative rabbinical group put out a “teshuva” that basically said that same thing. There is no religous exemption and schools should be able to refuse admittance to children who are not vaccinated.
I’m the school I taught at for 3 years, a Jewish school, the only way the child could attend school without vaccinations was with a letter from the Dr. You will be hard pressed to find a doctor nowadays who will write such a note. And as my sons frum doctor says, ” people who do t vaccinate their children should be shot”.
You want to show empirical proof about vaccines?
Take a bunch of these moron families, put them on an isolated island and release one measles infected kid as well.
If you really want, you can do the same with vaccinated kids on a different island.
Two weeks later see how many kids on each island contracted the measles.
Truth sharer, I thought you wrote ” morocon” families lol. I was so confused. But good idea.
GAW -“I believe with the recent (and ongoing) measles outbreak it is high time to have a frank discussion about vaccines and the Frum community.”
Unfortunately, you’re right, but the Net is Not the place. Almost e/o, except for a very few posters here – who will never be convinced anyways, have access to scientific knowledge and know better. I’m not saying we need an Asifa about this for the Non-internet users, but how about the Rabbonim mentioning it in their Shuls? Maybe even a Kol Koray?
IMHO, not vaccinating is Oiver the Issur of V’nishmartem and the parents are also Rodfim if the child comes down with a preventable disease because many of these diseases are contaigous before any obvious symptoms.
The simplest way to show it was done by Penn&Teller. Usually their shows are 100% not-Kosher, so don’t watch it, you have to find the specific clip which is “kosher.”
They took cardboard people and set them up on two squares. They then put a glass wall, representing vaccines, in front of one square. After that, they took out balls, representing diseases, and rolled it towards the cardboard people. Even if one of the vaccinated kids got hit by some wild ball, it was one kid out of 100 cardboard kids. The same couldn’t be said for the cardboard kids without the glass wall.
Chance,
I am not following your “logic” So if you contact an infection that Hashem created you wouldn’t take antibiotics that you believe man created?
Following Chance’s logic he/she shouldn’t be eating bread either, since obviously Hashem made wheat, not bread. Hashem didn’t build houses either, so maybe we should sleep in the great outdoors. Obviously this is all nuts. Hashem gave us the capability and the right to improve our lives in this world. Chance seems to want to live up to his/her sn, leaving everything to chance. I believe that Hashem wants us to do our hishtadlus to keep the community safe.
i’ve been on the fence regarding some vaccines, truth be told. i’m not against them and i’m not for, but how can some posters burst out with such boldness to call others rodfim and other such names? where is your respect for someone else’s opinion toward this obvious controversial issue? that’s disgusting! because even if you are of the opinion that vaccines are one of the greatest inventions of the last century, if you had a little knowledge of the issue, you have to admit that there is some sort of risk -no matter what the percentage is (because that is controversial and nobody really knows)- with injecting chemicals into your body.
why can’t you just be tolerant and respect other adults’ opinions just as every other controversial issue?!
everybody seems to be getting their knowledge about this issue from completely different sources. is there some source that we can agree to rely on to be authentic and true? i’m not sure. until then, let’s then respect the posters here, and attack the issue on hand.
GAW -“I agree that “the net” is not the only place, but it is one in which people can make a real difference.”
The only thing that will make a “real” difference in the community is if the Rabbonim get behind the issue. I’ve seen many problems in the Frum community due to ignorance. The way to stop ignorance is to educate them. People on the Net tend to be more educated than those who aren’t.
So how do you educate people Not on the Net, (due to Frumkeit)? You have the leaders educate them.
Just a few examples of ignorance that I’ve seen:
Not e/o in a car being buckled up.
People talking on cells during driving.
Not vaccinating children.
Not wearing helmets, or other protective gear, while bike riding or other sport activities.
Lack of basic fire & burn safety.
tzaddiq,
The reason why we are intolerant of those opinions is that they are baseless. I am not an expert in vaccinations, so I trust the recognized experts in the field. I also have plenty of reasons to trust them being that I survived childhood without any major diseases thanks to the vaccines they developed. On the other side of the fence are those who are not experts but they “feel” that vaccines are bad for you.
NOBODY is saying that vaccines have zero risk. Of course it has a risk. But the risk of not getting vaccinated is far greater than the risk of a reaction to a vaccine.
I was with a little kid in the pediatric unit and then the PICU because of rotovirus, so please don’t tell me that vaccines are bad.
Even when we all get red/sore/irritable after the MMR, that is certainly better than being brain damaged due to your mother having the measles while she was pregnant. And the reason why they are/can be rodfim is because that is how vaccinations work, it is never 100% effective, but if greater than X% of the community is vaccinated then it’s mostly effective. By those parents who choose to not vaccinate, they are lowering the herd immunity and causing other children to be susceptible to disease.
If you don’t want to get vaccinate, then move to Alaska. The state will pay you per kid, due to oil dividends, and you can setup a nice community.
tzaddiq -“i’m not against them and i’m not for, but how can some posters burst out with such boldness to call others rodfim and other such names”
This is the Torah POV, not mine. Yes, people have different opinions about everything, but the problem is when your decisions affect others. If you told me that you think that vaccines are harmful -so you are keeping V’nishmartem, and you won’t ever let the kid outside your house – so you aren’t a Rodef -then fine.
But that isn’t the case, is it?
So how come people who get the vaccine and those that still come down with the disease aren’t Rodfim? Because they did their Histadlus -so they don’t have to keep their kid home for the rest of their lives.
Tzaddiq, the thing is that it is know what the risk factors are for vaccinations, and more importantly what they are for not vaccinating. and let me be very clear, by not vaccinating your children you are putting them, and others around them at great risk for a number of diseases some of which can maim or kill a child.
By not giving a child vaccinations you are avoiding a totally imaginary risk at the cost of a very real one. in the days before vacines it was common for a family to have 6 kids and bury 5 of them!
There are sources that are are agreed on to be true, its called peer reviewed medical literature. We have people who are well trained to understand this stuff and to this for a living (Including our own Charlie Hall)
Please allow this link, (it’s from the Agudah’s website about vaccines in halacha):
http://www.chayimaruchim.com/pdf/Vaccination%20in%20halacha.pdf
I would personally prefer everyone else to get vaccinated,
so that I and my children won’t have to. There are side affects and dangers, serious ones are rare but do occur. I hope you all conclude that the proven benefits are worth the definite but statistically small risks. (Not autism, that one is ridiculous).
So if you would all be so kind….
nitpicker -“I would personally prefer everyone else to get vaccinated, so that I and my children won’t have to.”
Oh, we do, no matter what you do. And it won’t help you and your family because the diseases are still out there. Herd immunity is effective till a point. Smallpox isn’t being given as a vaccine anymore because the herd immunity has reached that point.
tzaddiq: you wrote “where is your respect for someone else’s opinion toward this obvious controversial issue?” Although i cant speak for others, my respect for someone else’s opinions stops when it can harm myself and my family. Other than that, if you want to say the sky is purple, be my guest!
chance: I’m not going to try to change your mind, just keep in mind that Hashem created the vaccines. He put the idea and the know how into mans brain, He gave said man the tools, willpower and desire to make the vaccine, He made the results help cure the disease He created, and He gave everyone the chochmah to use it. Obviously some of us lack a few screws up there….
you wrote “a parent doesnt have to vaccinate their child in order to go to school” You are absolutely right, a doctor should.
That just proves the point that vaccines are not just given willy-nilly. We don’t get the smallpox vaccine because in this case, the risk-reward ratio is the opposite of other vaccines.
health, truthsharer, gavra and ZK:
i’m sorry but what you say sounds absolutely ridiculous, with all due respect. are you seriously saying that my healthy kids or my neighbour’s gezunte kids, who aren’t vaccinated, are a ticking time-bomb?! sorry but that is pure fallacy and rubbish (to be clean on this board)!! i just don’t buy it. because others say that its the people WITH the vaccines that initiate these epidemics and diseases the likes which we haven’t had in decades. don’t start telling me that this kid almost died if not for vaccines, yada yada yada, i know the power and wonderful results that vaccines have on our world these days – BORUCH HASHEM- however, HOWEVER, the risks and statistical studies (you hear truthsharer?) show otherwise, and are totally NOT baseless but statistically proven time and time again, over a period of years and years of research of the HORRORS and INCREASED RATE OF AUTISM and MANY MANY ALLERGIES (like my son who got a peanut allergy 3 weeks after his mmr vaccine- EXACTLY when these experts anticipate), THE LIKES WHICH WE HAVE NEVER SEEN before.
by the way this is so not a frum issue, this is global, so don’t start blaming rabbis to bring up the subject forcing their communities to vaccinate. this has nothing to do with rabbis. this is an issue that millions of people with nebach autistic children and others- like my other son- who reacted with autistic symptoms ALSO 3 weeks after the mmr vaccination – are grappling with and are blaming the vaccines for their tzorus.
to health and others
look, I am just not so sure of the answer to what I see as a philosophical conundrum. You are so sure of the answer, I am not.
I and my children have had the various vaccinations with only minor affect. but I am personally aware of two cases of disastrous
results. Is it worth the risk? Perhaps. Is it an obligation to the rest of the community? Again perhaps.
besides I am disturbed by the arguments about ‘vaccines’ in general rather than about particular ones.
measles is a great example to discuss. it is mostly self limiting in children but sometimes can have very bad consequences. it is also a danger to others and particularly pregnant woman. (this is usually only mentioned with regard to german measles which an entirely unrelated disease). again is the risk of the disease and the unlikely possibility of serious outcome worth the small risk of serious result from the vaccine? does someone else have the right to force me to take this risk?
I don’t know the answers as are sure you do, so I have no more to argue in this thread.
Of course we have the right to force you to vaccinate, just like we have the right to force you to stop at a red light.
Tzaddiq, I can post in CAPS too if I want, it doesn’t make anything more true. You state that the risks and statistical studies show otherwise. Name one study that was accepted in a peer reviewed journal that shows that vaccinating is a higher risk than the disease.
And I’m not sure why you mention autism, that has been shown to be a false claim.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.