October 26, 2021 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2020974
The bigger the fight gets, the stronger the resistance, the deeper the mistrust, and the more distraction from the benefits/necessity of the vaccine.October 26, 2021 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #2021032yaakov doeParticipant
If people would just get their information on vaccination from their own physicians instead of cable TV, Facebook or assorted conspiracy theorists there would be almost universal compliance.
I have yet to meet a physician or nurse who has not been vaccinated and had all eligible family members vaccinated.
In the summer of 1956 or 1957 we all lined up to get a polio vaccine which ended polio in America. I was young, but don’t remember any anti vaxers or demonstrators at the sites.October 26, 2021 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #20210402scentsParticipant
“I have yet to meet a physician or nurse who has not been vaccinated and had all eligible family members vaccinated.”
There are hospitals facing nursing shortages due to being forced to comply with state regulations that mandate healthcare workers to be vaccinated.October 26, 2021 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2021042G-d bless Senator Ted CruzParticipant
Did you ever hear of a person vaccinated against polio who became sick with polio because someone else didn’t get the polio vaccine?October 26, 2021 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2021052October 26, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #2021065
What do you suggest should be done?October 26, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #2021067ujmParticipant
People who recovered from Covid do not need the vaccine.October 26, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #2021068emes nisht shekerParticipant
Look up herd immunity. Making false claims about what vaccines can and should do is just dumb and delusional.October 26, 2021 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #2021115
Cruz, good question.
CDC says that 2 IPV polio shots give, gasp, 90% protection. 3 shots give 99%. They say they do not know how long immunity lasts (but I presume longer than Covid). Many other vaccines do not give full or long-term protection, such as flu. before COVID, there were NO vaccines for coronoviruses, despite many of them circulating. Several more differences:
1) Covid is currently circulating much more than polio did. Lower chances of encountering virus meant much lower chances of infection after vaccine
2) During polio times, the world was not so connected. People were not getting text messages that someone on another side of the world got hit by a bus right after getting a vaccine.
3) People were less educated. Now they are a little more educated and think that they can understand statistics even when they do not, or when someone gives them skewed data in CAPS: DO YOU KNOW THAT MOST SICK IN PEORIA ARE WITH VACCINE EVEN AS 100% of PEORIANS ARE
VACCINATED.October 26, 2021 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #2021117
> There are hospitals facing nursing shortages
I quoted vaccination numbers before – doctors are I think 95%, registered nurses are not far behind. Bedside nurses may be an issue. And even a small percentage of losing staff matters especially given that they all are exhausted after dealing with COVID, especially now when they deal in part with people who chose not to vaccinate. The nurse may decide why does he need to do mesiras nefesh for people who do not care and quit and go into finance. Cf halakha of raising an animal “with the owner”.October 26, 2021 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #2021119
Participant> The bigger the fight gets, the stronger the resistance,
Agree. The main goal of learning critical thinking is to be able to analyze data disregarding personal preferences. Talmudic learning does the same thing. Those who did not learn it obviously failed their learning, whether yeshiva or college, whatever their hats/degrees are.October 26, 2021 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #2021120ubiquitinParticipant
“Did you ever hear of a person vaccinated against polio who became sick with polio because someone else didn’t get the polio vaccine?”
Bad example. you see Polio vaccine existed before WhatsApp and Facebook. So Antivaxxers, did not have accessto their sources of “research”
If your example was measles then yes I have
I’m not sure.
The vaccine has been available for a while now. Anyone who was planning ot get it would have gotten it. Unfortunately it i is still not enough. After a bunch of early enthusiasm, people fighting for vaccines, cutting in line, People accused of redirecting vaccines, it leveled off in the usmmer to an extent.
The way to push it further is with mandates. Are there people willing to lose their job to avoid it? Sure and that is their prerogative. But while icky, the mandates are more likely to push those on the fence to get it than push them not to. The vocal ones are largely people who would not have gotten it without a vaccineOctober 26, 2021 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #20211462scentsParticipant
“People who recovered from Covid do not need the vaccine”
Maybe if they had sufficient antibodies the argument might make some sense. Just because someone had covid in the past does not make them immune, there are a lot of people that got covid twice. In fact, bad covid twice, with hypoxia and severe respiratory symptoms.October 26, 2021 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #2021177
2scents -“There are hospitals facing nursing shortages due to being forced to comply with state regulations that mandate healthcare workers to be vaccinated”
It’s Wrong the way DemonCrats are forcing e/o to vaxxed.
I agree with the OP.
We aren’t children. How could anyone vote for these DemonCrats?
OTOH, you shouldn’t have the right to work in healthcare if you can spread disease to the patients there.
Stop worrying about shortages. If they raise the salaries, the retirees will come back. And not only that, the Antivaxxers will get Vaxxed!October 26, 2021 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #2021191
Even chicken-heads get it – Tyson Foods reported going from 50% vaccinated staff to 96% in last several months.October 27, 2021 12:14 am at 12:14 am #2021194
2scenta> Just because someone had covid in the past does not make them immune, there are a lot of people that got covid twice.
true, my hypothesis is that maybe first round creates some invisible damage in the body, making it easier to get seriously sick second time around. Also, statistically speaking, a person who got covid, is a person who is in a risky environment due to some combination of health status, work condition, housing situation, and personal stubbornness – as most of these, including stubbornness, do not usually improve from COVID, likelihood of a repeat are high. They should take at least one doze, I think.October 27, 2021 12:15 am at 12:15 am #2021197ujmParticipant
“People who recovered from Covid do not need the vaccine”
Maybe if they had sufficient antibodies the argument might make some sense. Just because someone had covid in the past does not make them immune, there are a lot of people that got covid twice.
Getting Covid twice is rare.
Based on your argument (not mine), you shouldn’t vaccinated since people can get Covid despite being vaccinated.
For those rare cases of getting Covid a second time (or a first time after vaccinating), the symptoms are very rarely severe.
Indeed, European countries accept proof of having recovered from Covid as a basis to not vaccinate and still be permitted in places where otherwise only vaccinated people are permitted.
America refuses to do that only for political reasons.October 27, 2021 6:46 am at 6:46 am #2021258Abba_SParticipant
On 1/6 a group of unarmed civilians protested at the capital. These mandates may result in many law enforcement officers and soldiers losing thier job. The question will be does the government have adequate protection to insure law & order. It is very easy to say you will just replace them but it itakes months to train a replacement. This will result in higher crime rates resulting in businesses closing and people moving resulting in lose of tax revenue, Social programs will have to be cut resulting in riots.October 28, 2021 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #2022098
I’m not honestly sure, but I don’t think this is the way.
They should give out–maybe once a month, not more–sugar sweet statistics about how COVID is declining due to the vaccines, FAQs about the dangers and good answers, and, more than anything, shut their mouths about every slight variant which just discourages everyone. And urge doctors to urge their patients to get vaxxed.
Part of the big hesitancy of getting jabbed is that there was such huge hype about it, a new, potentially scary vaccine (at least, some room for concern), then the hype faded, the numbers declined, and then…..EVERYONE, MASKS BACK ON, EVERYONE SCARY DELTA IS HERE. WHOEVER’S NOT GETTING VACCINATED IS MURDERING EVERYONE ELSE AND MAKING IT TERRIBLE FOR ALL THE UPSTANDING CITIZENS WHO DID THE RIGHT THING AND DID GET VAXXED.
And now it’s mandates and pink slips.
Besides for what I wrote originally, even if they were to succeed, it would create/foster lots of ill sentiments and mistrust in the already very wobbly government.
@AbbaS was that meant for a different thread?October 29, 2021 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2022268
Those who are making the vaccine mandates feel that they have given people enough time to get vaccinated on their own volition.
For the sake of public health, those making the mandates are convinced that the benefits of every individual being vaccinated demands that every individual join in this effort. This will hopefully reduce to close to zero the amount of people dying and getting sick from covid.
The medical community has done its job of education regarding the vaccines.
There was hype about “the” vaccine – all 5 of them from different manufacturers (3 in the US) – because until the vaccine there was a Maloch Hamoves killing and causing sickness to tens of millions of people from covid. The vaccines stopped it.
Maybe there is a chiyuv of shehecheyanu.
Masks are just a inconvenience to wear and if it helps protect immunocompromised people from getting sick then it is best to wear it.
Some distrust is healthy suspicion. Too much is conspiracy theory territory.October 29, 2021 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #2022415
Oh Jackk, -“Too much is conspiracy theory territory”
Why doesn’t this apply to all the repurposed Therapies that Studies have proven that they work?
Why didn’t they approve them at the beginning?
Why are they still Not approving some of these Therapies?!?October 31, 2021 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2022551
Current peak in Covid deaths in Us is going for last 2 months and is as high as last March and just half off December peak. Besides low vaccination, I think the other reason is that last year all papers were blaming Covid on Trump with daily front page pictures and articles. This lead population to be more cautions. Now, the storyline is that this is in Republican states (not fully true as also CA, OH, WI…) and not a national problem, and we are on the way to fighting global warming.October 31, 2021 2:00 am at 2:00 am #2022605
AAQ -“Current peak in Covid deaths in Us is going for last 2 months and is as high as last March and just half off December peak”
So the answer is don’t force people to Vaxx.
Give them a choice – Either vaxx or cheap repurposed drugs.October 31, 2021 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2022608
Oh Jackk, -“For the sake of public health, those making the mandates are convinced that the benefits of every individual being vaccinated demands that every individual join in this effort.”
I’m Vaxxed and I take Zinc & Quercitin.
But in NYC there are a lot of city workers that have antibodies.
And a lot just don’t like DeBlasio’s Dictatorship!
So obviously the city government isn’t really concerned about Public Health, because come Monday morning they won’t have enough Essential Services!
So there will be a lack of police protection, lack of responding to Fires & Medical Emergencies.
Tons of garbage, which they’ll be Rats & Disease because of it.
But the DemonCrat Dictator must get his way!October 31, 2021 10:11 am at 10:11 am #2022655
It does apply to the repurposed therapies.
Either you believe in conspiracy theories or you believe that they are slow, inept, overburdened, and red tape.October 31, 2021 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2022750
If they don’t like the mayor, they can quit.
Personal anti bodies is a reason to decide on what to personally do.
Vaccine mandates are a public policy issue.
As the right likes to repeat about people getting killed by the police -“all they need to do is comply.”
If they can’t comply, then they will suffer the consequences.October 31, 2021 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2022779
Oh Jackk, -“If they can’t comply, then they will suffer the consequences.”
You’re so interested in protecting your DemonCrat Leadership – you didn’t even begin to understand my post!
I don’t care what happens to the City employees, but my point is the DemonCrat Leadership Don’t care about
Here it is again:
“So obviously the city government isn’t really concerned about Public Health, because come Monday morning they won’t have enough Essential Services!
So there will be a lack of police protection, lack of responding to Fires & Medical Emergencies.
Tons of garbage, which they’ll be Rats & Disease because of it.”October 31, 2021 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #2022880
@Jackk the targets of these mandates are those who weren’t convinced by all the information that was put out.
As I said, these mandates will simply strengthen the resistance.
My suggestion, again, for what it’s worth: Show some optimism in the vaccine. Let the government themselves show they believe in it. From the onstart of the vaccines there was but skepticism, pessimism, blaming Trump, and threats.
Like I said, put out something positive.
Will it work? I don’t know.
But I don’t think shoving it down everyone’s throats is the answer.October 31, 2021 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #2022888
Health > So the answer is don’t force people to Vaxx.
Well, a inhumane libertarian answer would be to let them deal with this on their own, including the cost of whatever medicines they require. Maybe insurance will cost more for unvaxxed – this is free market and is happening, but too slow for a pandemic.
Even buying the benefits of the miracle drugs you advocate, let’s say they are 75% effective (this is way over what tests show). Then 25% of them would require expensive medical treatment. Let them pay it. Sometimes money impresses people more than lives (drashos on b’hol meodeha and “your money or your life – I am thinking, I am thinking”). So, maybe if one person gets billed for full cost of oxygen, etc, maybe your whole shtetl will wake up? maybe just start a rumor about itOctober 31, 2021 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2022931
AAQ -“Well, a inhumane libertarian answer would be to let them deal with this on their own, including the cost of whatever medicines they require. Maybe insurance will cost more for unvaxxed – this is free market and is happening, but too slow for a pandemic.”
I’d agree with that if the Vaccines were 100% effective!
But e/o knows they aren’t even close.
So what do they do if a Vaxxed pt. gets Covid?
They hospital them & give Monoclonals & Remedsivir.
I’m advocating Repurposed Drugs, which are much cheaper than the above.November 1, 2021 12:42 am at 12:42 am #2022993
Health, vaxed person did his minimal hishtadlus and thus deserves support. I am not contradicting your position on the drugs. I have my doubts based on cursory review of literature, but if you are dealing with am koshe oref, your approach is probably reasonable. If they will not do anything else, give them things that might help even if unproven in tests. I also saw am announcement of a cheap drug finally proven in who tests. Also the new Merck drug is cheap to produce, we will just be paying extra for their r&d, but it will be affordable in poor countries.
Do your customers have to pay out of pocket or they are covered by insurance/government? I presume you will now recommend the Merck tablet alsoNovember 1, 2021 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2023009
AAQ -” If they will not do anything else, give them things that might help even if unproven in tests.”
That’s your mistake.
Those drugs have many studies that they work.
What happened here in the US, Trump was trying to get a hold of this Pandemic, so pushed HCQ. This didn’t go well with Fauci, so he distanced himself.
The MSM & the Libs used this as an opportunity to make the treatment of Covid 19 into a political fight.
Once they got away with it, just like they got away with Stealing the 2020 election, this empowered them!
So they weren’t afraid to do the Same thing with Ivermectin!
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