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So, usually the wife adopts the husband’s minhagim. But does that hold true for veibeshe minhagim also?
Stuff like hafrashas challah and shabbos candles and saying tehillim and going to minyan.
Minhagim go by the husband. I’m not sure that everything in your list is a “minhag”.
I know other guys who also think going to minyan is a veibisher thing…
covering legs is a veibeshe minhag.
I think it makes sense for a wife to follow her mother’s minhag for lighting Shabbos candles as opposed to mother in laws. She is the one doing the mitzvah and she should do it in the way that’s most meaningful to her, usually it’s by following in her mother’s footsteps.
My favorite explanation of minhagim is from Hakham Ovadia Yosef: a Sephardic woman doesn’t give up her minhagim when she marries an Ashkenaz, since by nature, her Sephardic minhagim are more correct than the Ashkenazic minhagim. Circular reasoning at its best.
R’ Yaakov Emden allowed his wife to keep her minhag to say Shehecheyanu at candle lighting for Yom Tov. This is brought as a proof that the minhagim regarding women’s mitzvos follow her mother.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1408&st=&pgnum=115&hilite=
RD, not necessarily circular, Chacham Ovadiah likely felt that due to a different history for Sefardim than Ashkenazim, Sefardic customs were better preserved than Ashkenazic ones.
The husband generally doesnt have a minhag how to light candles. Why would the new wife adopt her husband’s mother’s minhag?
Ubiquitin, presumably, the husband’s mother would be following her husband’s mother, who is following her husband’s mother…
Just because you don’t do something doesn’t mean you don’t have a minhag for it. If my family’s minhag is to do “x” pertaining only to woman, than that is my minhag. If I were to marry someone with no minhag ie. geyores then she would adopt my minhagim pertaining to woman. As far as my wife adopting my minhagim when she already has her own, I do not know, but I would assume she would just like all the other minhagim pertaining to both of us.
Simcha6, when we’re observing Mitzvos, we’re not looking to do what’s meaningful for us, or enjoyable, or logical, or fulfilling. We’re just trying to do the right thing.
Minhagim follow the husband; the exception, as DaasY explained, is in observing women’s mitzvos, where a woman follows her mother’s minhagim.
Dy that doesnt make any sense. I get the idea of adopting husband’s minhagim since its not practical for a family to practice different sets of minhagim. But the husband doesnt have a minhag regarding lighting candles, his mother does and she would follow her mother’s etc.
Why not? It’s his mitzvah as well, just that only she actually physically lights, and it’s actually a chiddush that it follows her family.
I was told by my Rebbe that lady minhagim go accroding to the girls mother. What her mother does is what she follows. This includes but not limited to Challah, Shabbos Lecht, and taharas hamishpachah. Other things like nusach tefillah, gebrokts, etc. goes accroding to the lady’s husband’s minhagim……….
DY of course it is his mitzvah. He however genrerally doesnt have any minhagim how to light ie on the rare occasion that he may have lit he didnt wave his hands he didnt say any tefilah he didnt light based on the number of kids he may have had etc etc etc ditto for any other minhagim regarding candle lighting.
Its pashut that when she adopts practices for which her husband has no minhag she would do as her mother does.
Note that R’ Yaakov Emden doesnt bring a raayah that she followed her mother, it is pashut he just states it as fact.
Ubiquitin, you’re making a circular argument. If the minhag followed the man, it would express itself in how his mother lights.
Gotbeer, I can tell you for a fact that all the Ashkenazic women I have met who married Sephardic men, follow their husbands’ mothers’ minhag regarding taharas hamishpacha. I do not understand WHY this should be acceptable practice. Taharas hamishpacha is in the woman’s domain, is private, and is passed from mother to daughter for the most part. But this is what I have observed over the years.
Oomis, I’m not sure which aspect you are referring to, and this is probably not the venue to discuss it, but it would depend on whether it’s something purely based on minhag, or whether there’s a halachic angle to it.
Oomis, if you’re referring to something determined according to Halacha, not a minhag, (for instance zman of shkia or tzeis) then that is why what you have observed is acceptable. Sephardim follow the Beis Yosef (or Bet Yosef) in matters of Halacha, and women married to Sephardim do the same.
DY
Youve misunderstood, im saying the minhag CAN’T follow the man because he doesn’t have a minhag in this regard.
No, I haven’t misunderstood. I disagree. There could have been a minhag regarding how a man instructs his wife to light.
DY, That seems absurd
Can you think of any similar example?
It may seem absurd, but I don’t really mean that the minhag is the instruction per se. Her lighting would be an expression of his minhag; the way he perpetuates his minhag is through her lighting.
DY, it seems absurd to me that a person can have a minhag about something he doesnt do
can you think of another example?
I don’t think it’s absurd, especially when you consider that there may be times when he does do the mitzvah himself (for example, she’s in the hospital).
The reason the minhag does follow her is probably precisely because she is the one who physically performs the mitzvah, so it’s hard to find an example.
The closest I can think of off the top of my head is that if someone has a minhag to do metzitzah b’peh, he will hire a mihel who will do it, rather than rely ib the mohel following his own minhag.
It’s not a perfect example, though.
DY
“The reason the minhag does follow her is probably precisely because she is the one who physically performs the mitzvah” So we agree.
(The metzitzah example is terrible as you know)
We agree as to the reason it follows her. We disagree as to whether the other possibility is absurd.
I go by my mother in terms of minhagim regarding the mitzvos that apply to women. But in terms of halacha, I go by my husband.
Sometimes it’s confusing what is minhag and what is halacha. If he says it’s halacha, I’ll go by that too.
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Are you implying that in Hilchos Brachos he can be ???? ???????? ?????
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So there might be other factors at play. If in Hilchos Berachos she is ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? then maybe he can’t be ???? ???????? ????. So there might be several factors at play.
The reason the minhag does follow her is probably precisely because she is the one who physically performs the mitzvah, so it’s hard to find an example.”
That is not necessarily true. For example, many Ashkenazic women who marry a Sephardi, follow HIS family minhag for tevila. So let’s say an Ashkenazic woman was married to an Ashkenazi and then was widowed or divorced. Now, suppose she marries again, to a Sephardi. Though her former minhag in the first marriage might have been to immerse 3 times, it may now be that she immerses 7 times, as per the custom of many Sephardic women. I find that very interesting, as this is clearly HER mitzvah, and she should follow her own mother’s teaching (Toras Emeha) according to what you mentioned, but it is not the case. At least, not in my experience with many such women.
Issues that pertain to halocha should be asked to your own Rav. If people would like to discuss halachos in these types of forums, they should cite their sources (as some people do). Without sourcs they remain what are called “boich sevaros” (ideas from the belly).
Oomis, it affects her husband as well.
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http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14054&st=&pgnum=365&hilite=
(end of ?”?)
R’ Moshe was saying that any issue that pertains to Halocha she has the right to follow any Posek of hers, however, if it would be an issue of Minhugim then she would have to accept her husband’s Minhugim.
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