Very Judgemental

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  • #709481

    smartz
    Member

    Aries, im sorry that you feel personally attacked in this forum. As Yidden, we all feel very strongly about Torah and you can tell from the way people are passionate about their stance, that Torah means the world to them and they are rightfully not willing to compromise on even one iota.

    The problem is, the way people discuss their stance/opinion.

    Im willing to bet that most of the people who opposed your stance/opinions, wud have explained their side in much nicer, meaningful way if they spoke to you in person.

    When we go explaining to Balei Teshuva, or any Yid who seek guidance, we explain it with patience and warmth.

    I think that the biggest drawback of discussing things on a forum, is that you lose the sense of the “person” behind the screenname.

    Its much easier to yell/ argue harshly/ put down another person when your doing it to a “screenname”.

    Now, please dont’ misunderstand me. If s/o brings a proof for shulchan Aruch that s/t is allowed or not allowed, there can be NO compromises on that ( even if many pp have decided to ignore the halacha and do as they wish).

    If we even start compromising on halacha, it goes down from there, becuase there is no end to where else we start to become lax about…

    However ( and this is to the general CR public), more than often, situations arise that are “grey”, where one Rov approves of a certain custom while others don’t.

    There is not need to bash one side over the other but to respecfully agree to disagree.

    Aries, im sorry that your life experience has lead you to lose hope and faith in Rabbanim. I can imagine that being heartbreaking and depressing because our rabbanim are our leaders.

    However know that we are in Dor of Ikva Demeshischa ( era of Mashiach) where it has been prophesized that there will be confusion at same time there will be influx of knowledge.

    ( unfort. we live in an era where not every “rebi” is a Rov…there’s a big difference)

    I strongly recommend you find yourself a mentor, a Rov, who

    is earnest in Yiras Shamayim and is baki in Torah and whom you can

    trust.

    Hatzlacha!

    #709482

    Everyone, relax- Im not sure I understand what the problem is? No one is bashing anyone else. There isnt anything wrong with disagreeing. The OP asks for opinions…and everyone gives it.

    Thats not to say that if we disagree I dont love you as a fellow yid. I just dont agree with your derech…

    Whats the problem with that?

    #709483

    Aries2756: I feel for you, and I understand exactly how you feel. You seem like a real sincere and compassionate person. I think it would be a good idea for you to seek out one of the sincere and good hearted rabbanim out there, and make him your Rav. This way you can shelter yourself by surrounding yourself with the good; and you will learn to ignore the bad [to the best of your ability], and leave it for Hashem to worry about.

    Just keep in mind that Hashem runs the world; so therefore: 1. Nobody suffers if it is not Hashem’s will, and 2. There will be a Dim V’cheshbon in shamayim for any aggression committed in this world, regardless of their stature.

    #709484

    oomis
    Participant

    Aries, please don’t be so upset. Some people seem to enjoy stirring up the hornets’ nest – until they get stung, too. I get what you are saying. I have my own issues with people who hide behind the title “Rabbi” or “Yeshivah” and believe that somehow it confers automatic sainthood on both. However, because I might have an issue with a specific rabbi or specific yeshivah, does not mean I will tar all of them with the same brush. And I know that you do not, either, though some people here might abrasively and wrongfully suggest otherwise.

    I have an ongoing problem with a major halachic breach on the part of a “choshuvah place and person,” which is robbing me of my sleep and health. My husband and I have tried respectfully to resolve this problem, but the chutzpah of the parties involved has made it impossible. I can no longer look at someone whom I once held in VERY high esteem, knowing that though well aware of what is being done at his behest, he is perfectly content to let it be done, taking no steps whatsoever to rectify a situation which is both against halacha AND city law. Fortunately, I will not go OTD over this, but how many people HAVE gone OTD when seriously disillusioned by the hypocrisy they observe in so-called frum people who DO know better?

    #709485

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Oomis, thumbs up!

    #709486

    mdd
    Member

    Who ever told Aires,SJSinNYC, the OP and others that it is wrong to judge people ACCORDING TO THE TORAH? There are actually halochos of how to properly judge others ACCORDING TO THE TORAH. They are brought down in the sefer “Chofets Chaim”. If somebody judges others wrongly, it is a ta’ana. We go by what the Torah says, not by what Aries feels, or the OP and SJS think(because they do not know enough).

    #709487

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    LOL mdd.

    #709488

    mdd
    Member

    Mikehall12382, I agree with you, however, about the lack of proper Ahava for Ba’alei T’shuva and Geirim, displayed by some. Part of it is as follows: many of the Frum from Birth Yidden have spent their lives in the insular Yiddishe communities in the comfortable golus of America. HaKadosh Boruch Hu tells us to love Geirim “because you know the soul of a stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt.” Many of these FFBs do not know the taste of real golus — they do not “know the soul of a stranger”. Plus, their insular existence leads them to view the not-Frum as not real bnei Avraham,Yitshak and Ya’akov. Plus, some fellows are plain ba’alei ga’ava and lack Ahavas Yisroel even when it comes to Frum from Birth people.

    #709489

    Mdd: “They are brought down in the sefer “Chofetz Chaim.”

    Please state where in sefer Chofetz Chaim does it say that there is a mitzvah of “Hocheach Tochiach Es Amisecha” with regard to someone else’s behavior that is not halachically defined as ‘assur’ al pi halacha?

    “If somebody judges others wrongly, it is a ta’ana.”

    A Taana? It is an “Issur Dioreisa”; as written in the Torah [and sefer chafetz chaim] “B’tzedek Tishpot Amisecha”. There is absolutely no difference between the obligation of Hocheach Tocheiach [if applicable] and the obligation of “B’tzedek Tishpot Amisecha”

    #709490

    oomis
    Participant

    mdd, the problem often is that the posters who are being MOST judgmental are NOT judging according to the Torah, but according to standards set by the particular rov whom they follow. One should follow whatever rov one chooses; Pirkei Avos teaches us to make someone our rov. But we should try to avoid deriding others who follow the p’sak of a different rov from our own. On this site, too many people have not yet learned that, and continuously criticize other people who have different hashkofos from their own. Note I said “different,” not better or worse. (Still, I can almost bet there are those thinking to themselves right now, “Yeah, but my hashkafa IS better than theirs!”)

    While it is not always the best thing to be meikeil in certain things, neither is it a maileh to be machmir all the time. And if one is machmir on himself – fine. But he should not feel superior because he does, or make fun of someone else who does not.

    It is very easy for a man to be tzanua, for example, if one never speaks to women, never goes to public places where they might congregate, and never works with them. The TRUE ish tzanua, however, is the one who maintains those high standards when living a normal life that includes the necessity for doing all those things at some time or another. It’s kind of like the nazir versus the frum yid who drinks wine, but does not get drunk, go after women, or excessively concern humself with his appearance, except to be neat and well-groomed.

    #709491

    aries2756
    Participant

    myfriend (well not really) “Kapusta – aries said as much that halacha is of little value compared to her feelings. And her open disdain for rabbonim shlit”a, which she doesn’t as much as even deny!”

    No, that’s not what I said in any way shape or form. That is what YOU chose to read or understand. And that is loshon horah with a capital “L”. That is why these type of discussions are inappropriate because it leads to L”H and worse. Because you sit on your high horse and you look down upon everyone else. And once again you crossed the line big time because YOU ARE JUDGMENTAL and you proved MIKE’s point in spades.

    Torah is Torah and so is halacha, but YOU are not a RAV and YOU don’t get to pasken on a chat room. Anyone who has a sheilah should ask their own RAV. And if I have a sheilah I certainly wouldn’t come to YOU, I would go to the one or two Rabbonim I still trust as I said in my post. I never said I don’t trust ANY RAbbonim, and I never said my feelings are more important than Halacha.

    Let’s get this straight. YOU don’t know me. YOU don’t know my level of Frumkeit or my devotion to Torah and Halacha which is very straightforward. YOU actually know nothing but your own skewered and very limited opininio which you choose to share with this group. Had you said to YOUR rav the nasty comments that you said to me, I wonder how they would comment on your Loshon Horah b’farhesiah.

    #709492

    There is nothing wrong with following a certain Rov, etc…The problem is when one thinks he is above all others.I know of several Geirim and BT’s who’s love for Torah and Mitzvahs surpasses many FFB, what they had to go through to get to where they are now is trully amazing. Sadly many here would never accept them as worthy shidduchim for their children

    #709493

    aries2756
    Participant

    OK, maybe it was MY mistake. I thought this was a blog site for people to help each other. I was not under the impression that this was an “ASK THE RAV” website where people actually paskened for other people. Because as far as I know, Rabbonim don’t come here to answer sheilos. So as much as one person brings down a “vort” or halacha from one source, someone else will bring down something from another sefer or from their RAV to prove their point. But again, that is not what I believed this site to be. I thought this was a place where Jews helped one and other and not a place where one Jew claimed to be at the hierachy of the chain and claimed to be the Frumest of the frum and crowned themselves such and therefore gave themselves the right to insult and demean others.

    There is a time and place for jokes and sarcasm and that was moved to the general shmooze. There is a time for halachic discussion and that is when a person asks for halachic information in regard to a certain question, in which case the op should be encouraged to ask their own RAV. (did that actually come from me? YES!!!!)

    But frum people do need a place to just ask regular normal questions or ask advice anonymously from other frum people and I thought this was the place. I guess I was wrong. Yes there are fun threads like the riddle, word game, things kids say, and such. But other threads where people ask for help should be the most important aspect of such a website. But this has turned into a very harsh and rude place to be and one should only come here if they want to put on their armor and go to battle.

    Maybe the moderators should decide what Yeshiva World should be, a help forum or a bashing forum. Maybe it is only a place for the holier than thou crowd so everyone can agree and it is a place for ALL jews to gather and discuss or ask for advice and assistance. Maybe the Moderators need to decide whether it is up to them to decide who they want to advise to go elsewhere or keep allowing others to chase people away with their rude suggestions. Who controls this website anyway?

    Just an aside, that is why some people are cut out to bring OTD’s back and some just keep pushing them away!

    #709494

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “Yeah, but my hashkafa IS better than theirs!”

    That is where I give up, as I posted earlier.

    Good points Oomis.

    #709495

    oomis
    Participant

    Thanks, GAW.

    #709496

    Helpful
    Member

    The problem is when certain posters (whom we shall leave unnamed for the benefit of their dignity) promote outright issurim on this board, and when they are properly cited an open and shut SHULCHAN ARUCH that no one disputes, will start crying about their unnamed secret “Rabbi” who allegedly disagrees with the S”A and every posek of the past 500+ years.

    #709497

    aries2756
    Participant

    I would say that the problem begins when anyone brings anything in from lets say the Shulchan Aruch because there has been many seforim and Rebbeim who have expounded on and explained the Shulchan Aruch as well. Many seforim have been written with answers to various questions. And no one can know all of them unless you area a RAV who sits and learns all day or knows where to look things up. That’s my point. WE all know what we know, and we will all bring down just what we know to prove our own point and that is why someone else will bring down a differing view and in many threads it becomes a discussion in Gemarah. That is what chavrusah’s are all about, discussing a certain sugiah from different perspectives till they come to the same conclusion.

    So what one person believes is an “issur” for instance like being on the internet for one thing which most poskim will say is assur, others say its not, and many will find the right Rav to give them the answer they want. I wonder if all the Frumest of the Frum even asked their OWN Rav if it is ok for them to be here to begin with. So much for issurim, and then there is one of the biggest ISSURIM that you seem to wish to look away from and that is Loshan Horah and motzi shem rah? Why do you ignore those issurim.

    Really what’s the point, we are just going to get nowhere as usual.

    #709500

    Helpful
    Member

    And what does the S”A say about people who publicly promote (i.e. on this website) issurim m’doraysa (its happened many times especially in the area of arayos) and people who publicly legitimize doing aveiros?

    #709501

    mdd
    Member

    Lomed mkAdom and Oomis, I totally agree. Helpful, I do hear.

    #709502

    oomis
    Participant

    Helpful, some of the areas of arayos in question are not things upon which all are in agreement, i.e. women wearing socks or no sox, where the shok begins, if it is ok to wear cap sleeves with a long sleeve shirt underneath, etc. Some of us have felt very strongly one way or the other, and the responders have been very hyper.

    #709503

    Helpful
    Member

    Oomis, boys and girls being friends with each other is an issur d’oraysa. This has been pointed out many times on this board. No posek disagrees with Rav Moshe and every other posek who addressed this issue.

    Nevertheless, certain posters continue to persist in making it like its okay for boys and girls being friends, even though its been said here multiple times, with precise halachic citations, that is an issur gamur d’oraysa. Not one posek disagrees with this. Not one. Try to find ANY one on the record and let us know his name. You wont find any, period. It is a d’oraysa.

    If one of those posters again play it down or make it out like its okay, we all have an obligation to scream on the top of our lungs ASSUR GAMUR D’ORAYSA! Lest any innocent reader C”V fall victim to any of those posters ramblings.

    That is just an example.

    #709504

    kapusta
    Participant

    And what does the S”A say about people who publicly promote (i.e. on this website) issurim m’doraysa (its happened many times especially in the area of arayos) and people who publicly legitimize doing aveiros?

    I’m happy to know you’ve completely passed the Torah and went straight to Shulchan Aruch. And I’m happy you’ve conveniently forgotten about things like V’ahavta L’reiacha Kamocha and things like Shivim Panim LaTorah.

    *kapusta*

    #709505

    Helpful
    Member

    Kapusta, some things are black and white (i.e.eating pork). And even black and white issurim people here have wilfully promoted violating. When such atrocities occur here, we cry out in anguish — NO!

    #709506

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    Exactly.

    When the Reform movement says that it’s OK to eat Trayf and to marry a non-Jew,

    and when the Conservative movement says that it’s OK to drive to Shul on Shabbos if the Shul is not within walking distance, and that it’s OK for a Kohayn to marry a divorcee,

    there is no “V’ahavta L’reiacha Kamocha and things like Shivim Panim LaTorah.”

    These are outright Torah violations, and speaking out against them is not Loshon Hora. It’s the violations that are being spoken against, not specific people violating them.

    #709507

    oomis
    Participant

    “Oomis, boys and girls being friends with each other is an issur d’oraysa”

    I must have not read that thread. What was the exact quote from the Torah?

    #709508

    kapusta
    Participant

    Helpful, QuestionForYou:

    That is my point exactly. No one is saying its ok to eat pork, and no one is saying its ok to marry a non-Jew. Believe it or not, there are some things which some real rabbanim would say is completely muttar, and another rav will say its completely assur (ex: the eruv in a certain city). And if a real rav tells someone they can do something then no questions asked, they can do it. Even if a different rav says its a thousand percent assur.

    On a separate note, I’m really honestly trying to understand the point of the name calling. Maybe its just me, but if I saw someone doing something that needed perfection, I wouldn’t bash them at every opportunity, I would rather show them (by example) that there is a better way to do it. I understand that no one (myself included) is perfect, but it seems to me that knocking everyone down doesn’t really accomplish anything.

    *kapusta*

    #709509

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    “I’m happy to know you’ve completely passed the Torah and went straight to Shulchan Aruch.”

    The Shulchan Aruch is based on the laws of the Torah.

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