Video being taken in Shul on Rosh HaShana

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  • #610679

    10-Luchos
    Participant

    A friend of mine just informed me of the following occurrence.

    His Yeshiva has a rather large minyan during the Yomim Noraim. One of the people davening in this minyan is a person who is in a wheelchair, who requires the assistance of a gentile worker. This worker, apparently, was quite fascinated by the minyan, and took numerous videos of it on his phone, and posted it onto Youtube.

    I myself have not come to a conclusion as to how I feel about this. Is this ok? The worker is obviously not Jewish, and most of this took place during shofar until mussaf, when people can’t talk.

    What’s your opinion?

    #975499

    Sam2
    Participant

    R’ Elyashiv held (and this was generally agreed upon) that there is an Issur D’Oraisa of K’siva for allowing oneself to be videotaped on Shabbos or Yom Tov, just like it is Assur to take a videotape. (There are Mekilim that it is Muttar if it is purged within 24 hours because therefore it is not Shel Kayama; this is what the security cameras in many Frum areas rely on.)

    However, this is if there is some benefit to the Jew. Otherwise, it is just a P’sik Reisha D’lo Nicha Lei. The Goy is taking a video for himself. No Jew is gaining anything from it. No Jew is intentionally doing anything to be videotaped. They are just there while someone is videotaping. They are not doing anything Assur. This is what the world relies upon to walk outside every Shabbos and Yom Tov, even though Google and world governments could have satellites that are watching.

    #975500

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’ve seen the news on Saturday evenings where you have very frum looking people agreeing to be interviewed on camera on shabbat, and I’ve seen other newscasts where a spokesman for a Hasidic block or group will say on camera, “no interviews” due to shabbat. In the case you mentioned above, nobody consented to the melacha, and the goy did this on his own. Also, whether using a camera is even melacha is up to debate (ketiva?)

    #975501

    truthsharer
    Member

    How is it ksiva? Maybe on a real videotape, but a digital?

    #975502

    heretohelp
    Member

    Are you concerned about halachic implications or just the idea of Jewish practices being on youtube?

    #975503

    yeshivaguy45
    Participant

    This hits the famous shaila of ksiva on a digital screen. The camera is recording every movement and that would be a shaila of kosev because it’s stored in its considered as if it’s written down and it’s would be assur to do according to R’ Eliashiv Zt”l which Sam2 mentioned. (Interesting heter, Sam2 that makes sense.) Other poskim are maikel for several reasons.

    #975504

    truthsharer
    Member

    There is no halachic ksiva on a digital screen. It might be assur al pi minhag, but certainly not min haTorah.

    #975505

    yeshivaguy45
    Participant

    truthsharer, I did research on this. Sefer Ginzei Hakodesh brings down R’ Eliashiv Zt”l who said that Hashem’s name on a computer screen cannot be erased because it is an act of mechika and you are being mochek Hashem’s name. R’ Shmuel Wosner Shlita in shevet haleivi says it’s muttar min Hatorah, but because there’s a machlokes Rishonim whether Kesivas Shem Hashem Shelo Lishma can be erased, you should be machmir. R’ Moshe Shternbuch Shlita says that it’s muttar but if you want to be machmir, tavo alecha brocha. R’ Doniel Neustadt shlita says its completely muttar and it’s not considered writing.

    #975506

    Sam2
    Participant

    Yeshivaguy: It is very interesting that the Minhag HaOlam is to be Machmir like R’ Elyashiv by Shabbos and Yom Tov yet to be Meikel by M’chikas Divrei K’dushah. Everyone uses Bar Ilan, Otzar, etc.

    #975507

    Chortkov
    Participant

    a) If somebody is videoing everything in front of him (without a motion sensor), and ??? ???? there will be a constant feed of everything in front of the camera, why does it make a difference if the video contains me in or not?

    b) Does it make a difference if it is on a screen or not? (E.g. some CCTV cameras go straight to disk, not to a screen. Is that also kesiva? Even though there is nothing tangible except a few bytes?

    c) How to people go to the Kosel on Shabbos/Yom Tov according to R’ Elyashiv? Or does he asser this?

    d) B’mchilas Kvod Torosoi — did anybody ever tell/did R’ Elyashiv ever find out – how a screen works? Digital screens are totally different to the old type, and the disk doesn’t work with film anymore, where there is something tangible.

    #975508

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    where can we see it?

    #975509

    yeshivaguy45
    Participant

    yekke2 the answer to a)the difference is that you’re on it and now you took part in something. c)-I was wondering the same thing I asked several people, no one really knew. d)I was wondering the same thing. A rebbe of mine told me R’ Eliashiv Zt”l’s talmid R’ Dovid Morgenstern Shlita explained it to R’ Eliashiv, and that’s how R’ Eliashiv knew. My rebbe told me there’s a place in Yerushalyim that deals with these shailos called The Jerusalem Technological Institute. I tried googling it I couldn’t find it.

    #975511

    10-Luchos
    Participant

    I was mostly asking from a hashkafic angle.

    Whilst the halachic angle is fascinating, I’m not sure much could be done. What was the ba’al tokea supposed to do when he noticed that he was being filmed while blowing? Stop? Make everyone wait until the worker decided to stop recording? Remember, no assurance that he wouldnt start again once the blowing resumed

    #975512

    Imanonov
    Participant

    Why was my post removed? If the moderator didn’t allow the link, he could have removed just that.

    Anyway I’ll try it again without link.

    Yeshivaguy: your Rebbe might have been referring to The Zomet Institute

    #975513

    yeshivaguy45
    Participant

    Imanonov, I have heard of that and was wondering if that’s what he meant.

    #975514

    Sam2
    Participant

    yekke2 and yeshivaguy: Yes, R’ Elyashiv Assered going to the Kosel on Shabbos. There are some people in certain parts of the old city (I know one of them personally) who refused to leave their houses on Shabbos because of this. They met with R’ Elyashiv and he told them that in their situation they can be Mitzaref many Shittos to be Meikil and that they’d lose more than they’d gain by being Machmir here (no T’fillah B’Tzibbur, lack of Oneg Shabbos, etc.)

    Some people have claimed that they explained how a modern digital screen works to R’ Elyashiv and that he then was Chozer. Some close to him have claimed that they are lying and that he was never Chozer.

    #975515

    Chortkov
    Participant

    yekke2 the answer to a)the difference is that you’re on it and now you took part in something

    So according to you, if a goy was following you around with a pen writing down everything you do, you would have to freeze until he stopped?!

    #975516

    Sam2
    Participant

    yekke2: You are not doing a Ma’aseh K’siva by walking around in front of the Goy. Walking around in front of a camera is inherently a Ma’aseh K’siva according to these Shittos.

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