March 29, 2017 8:30 am at 8:30 am #1246241
This question is directed at anyone who supports these protests.
I’m not asking or arguing whether the protests are harmful, beneficial, kiddush hashem, chilul hashem etc…
I just want to know…i clearly saw someone kicking the woman. What is the heter for any physical contact with that woman?March 29, 2017 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1246291
Only one little kid made any physical contact with her (by kicking.) Obviously he shouldn’t have due to negia. But as far as the rest of what’s happening, the video doesn’t show what she did before this clip starts.March 29, 2017 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1246302TheGoqParticipant
How long before a counter demonstration is started and then further violence ensues?March 29, 2017 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1246301ubiquitinParticipant
“Obviously he shouldn’t have due to negia. ”
He held it wasnt derech chiba
“the video doesn’t show what she did before this clip starts.”
Ah, but it does show what they did before the clip starts namely block traffic.
And it makes it hard to justify their argument that they cant join the army since they sit and learn. If they have time to play in the street they have time to perform some form of civil serviceMarch 29, 2017 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1246441
If inducted to civil service, they’ll be a fifth column from within the system.March 29, 2017 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1246540lesschumrasParticipant
The reason for not kicking another individual is negiah? you are kidding right?March 29, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1246547
“Only one little kid made any physical contact with her (by kicking.)”
That must make it OK. After all it’s only a kid. And he didn’t ACTUALLY touch her. Only kicked her. Sorry. My apologies for being critical.
“Obviously he shouldn’t have due to negia.”
Obviously he shouldn’t have due to the inappropriate action of kicking her.
“But as far as the rest of what’s happening, the video doesn’t show what she did before this clip starts.”
So what? The only excuse to hit someone would be in self defense or to protect someone else. At the time we see him ‘only kicking her’, she is just walking and not attacking him or anyone else. Hence, don’t see any justification.
P.S. on rewatching the video there does seem to be an older bachur taking a swing at her.March 29, 2017 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1246550
No one justified the little kid who kicked her. But the rest of the protesters are probably justified after she did what happened before the clip started.March 29, 2017 10:48 am at 10:48 am #12465525ishParticipant
If you would like to condemn the protests based on what an individual at them did then let us look at it the other way. Some of the people who oppose these protests are anti-religious. How can you support opposing protests then?March 29, 2017 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1246558
This question is directed at anyone who supports these protests.
I have no idea what the protests are about, so I cannot answer whether I “support” them or not. Is it not possible, however, for someone to support a cause but not violence supposedly in the name of that cause?
I just want to know…i clearly saw someone kicking the woman. What is the heter for any physical contact with that woman?
Do you think that a bank robber sees himself as relying on a heter? Why would you assume a criminal cares one iota for halacha?March 29, 2017 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1246560
But the rest of the protesters are probably justified after she did what happened before the clip started.
Yeah… no. We are responsible for our own behavior no matter what someone else does.March 29, 2017 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1246562
“No one justified the little kid who kicked her. ”
Earlier you said “Only one little kid made any physical contact with her (by kicking.)”
The ‘only’ sounds very close to an attempt to justify. After all, what’s the big deal? It was ‘only’ a kid.
“But the rest of the protesters are probably justified after she did what happened before the clip started.”
Please. Tell us. What did she do before the clip started, that justifies it?
And you haven’t addressed the older bachur who took a swing ar her.March 29, 2017 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1246566Avi KParticipant
The Peleg HaYerushalmi is a terrorist organization that has called for the death of the head of the IDF branch for yeshiva students. It should be outlawed and its leaders imprisoned for incitement. Their words definitely fall under the “clear and present danger” test.March 29, 2017 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1246576
This is what the protest is , As neutral as I can make it
There is an issue of the draft in Israel and that Yeshiva Bocherim do not get drafted. However the deal that they dont get drafted includes the provision that they go down to the Draft board and tell them.
The Peleg Yerushalim faction not only does not go to the draft, they do not even go down to the draft board to registerMarch 29, 2017 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1246586TheGoqParticipant
“How can you support opposing protests then?”
I’m assuming this is directed at me so let me state I am not in favor in any counter demonstration, However actions have consequences and fomenting anger and hatred will unfortunately often have the affect of increasing division and hatred and yes violence.March 29, 2017 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1246643
Hitting any Jew “derech nitzayon” is assur.
Negiah is assur “derech chibah”.
I’m quite sure that this cannot fall under both categories at the same time.
I would prohibit hitting the woman (I haven’t seen the video) because of Lo Yosif, not because of Lo Sikrevu. I don’t see why hitting women is in any way worse than men.March 29, 2017 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1246646
ZD: There is an issue of the draft in Israel and that Yeshiva Bocherim do not get drafted. However the deal that they dont get drafted includes the provision that they go down to the Draft board and tell them.
The Peleg Yerushalim faction not only does not go to the draft, they do not even go down to the draft board to register
Is the provision that they must go to “tell them”, or that they must register to conscription at a later point in time?March 29, 2017 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1246674
I can’t believe I have to say this, but it seems somebody does.
Negia is an issue of a man and woman who are not closely related (e.g. mother & son; husband & wife) not being allowed to exchange physical touch.
This has no connection whatsoever with the following:
It is assur to violently assault another person, even if you are a man and so is he, or even if you’re a man and the other person is a lady that you are married to.
Kicking another human being, or a dog or a cat, is assur.
In case you’re still confused:
No, you can’t do that even if he (male neighbor) dented your car, or she (wife) insulted you, or it (cat) made a mess in your flowerbeds.
(I would add that being a “little kid” is no excuse, and this is one of the first areas where we begin to be mechanech our children in knowing right from wrong.)March 29, 2017 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1246681
Thanks for being the one to say that.
I, for one, do not think that adocs’ “shaila” was serious. It was a rhetorical jab and guilt by association.March 29, 2017 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1246692
Plenty of Bochrin go to the Draft board and tell them, The followers of Rav Aharon leib and Rav Chaim go to the board and tell them
It is the followers of Rav Shumel Auberbach who do not go downMarch 29, 2017 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1246693WinnieThePoohParticipant
Right now, no one is forcing yeshiva boys to leave yeshiva and go the army. All they have to do is register at the draft office and they get a deferment for as long as they are full time yeshiva students. By the time they are not, they are usually much older, married with several kids and no longer needed by the army, so they do not end up serving.
Etznikim (aka Peleg Yerushalmim) refuse to register, and then rant about the terrible gezeira of forced conscription. If any one them run afoul of the police, they get arrested for draft dodging. Then they protest the arrest. And more get arrested…endless pointless cycle.
If they keep it up, they will get enough of the chilonim enraged, the draft/anti-chareidism will once more become a major issue in the next election, and Yair Lapid will win a majority over likud…and then there really will be a draft issue for everyone!March 29, 2017 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1246702
Golfer – Just a small pedantic point: Although both actions are prohibited, there is a world of difference between assaulting a human and causing pain to an animal. Don’t insult humans by putting them together.March 29, 2017 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1246759
What is most painful to me, is that these hoodlums, are acting supposedly in the name of HaRav Shmuel Auerbach Shlita. I doubt he is aware of what is really going on, but that aside, Rav Shmuel’s father, Rav Shloime Zalman ztzvk”l, was the epitome of ‘dracheha darchei noam’. He never got involved in politics at all, and was known for being a peace maker. How are these actions being done in the name of his son?!March 29, 2017 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1247161
Rav Shlomo Zalman personally attended protest against the draft.March 29, 2017 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1247182NeutiquamErroParticipant
There are two entirely separate issues here.
The behaviour of those protesters in the video, and the wider political issue.
There is a correlation between the two issues, but not necessarily causation. Wild, violent behaviour by some angry protesters is not an indictment of the entire movement, any more than agreeing with the views of the protesters validating bad behaviour.
The protesters acting violent in the video were wrong in acting in the manner they did, even if provoked. A Yid is expected and required to mantain a certain standard no matter what the situation, and some of these people failed miserably in that regard. Obviously the fact that this video is taken in isolation makes it much harder to see what’s going on, but that doesn’t excuse these actions. Condoning the protest does not equal condoning what took place in those few sayings. And obviously both in terms of touching a woman and hitting anyone, this is ossur.
Having said that, the only truly violent behaviour in this video is by a very young child. It’s impossible to say if this child was badly bought up, in a difficult situation or even just ADHD. To judge all of them on the actions of a few, especially the actions of a child, is plainly ridiculous.
I’m not going to go into the wider politics, firstly because of how incredibly long that would take and because there is little in this world more mind-numbingly irritating and convoluted than the ins and outs of Israeli politics. I’ll leave that unpleasant task to the rest of you.
In conclusion: Yes, those who were violent in the video were wrong and almost certainly oiver several issurim, but the most significant actions were by a child, and we have no way of knowing what led to that.March 29, 2017 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1247180
True. I wasn’t there, but I imagine it would’ve been with more decorum than the 2017 model.March 30, 2017 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1247425
“Rav Shlomo Zalman personally attended protest against the draft.”
He didnt kick anyone, turn over a dumpster,light garbage on fire, throw rocks or call policemen nazis.March 30, 2017 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1247424
“Obviously he shouldn’t have due to negia.”
I couldnt let this pass. No, he shouldnt have because it is a criminal act. He shouldnt be kicking anyone, male or female.March 30, 2017 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1247549smerelParticipant
I have a different take on these protesters and how they justify their behavior.
They aren’t different from anyone else (like bloggers for example) who believe they are out to save the world and the ends justify the means. They have a yetzer hora to act physically. Bloggers have a yetzer hora to hide behind a computer screen where they are safe. in ESSENCE they both have the same mentality. It is very easy for one group to bash the other.
I’m not justifying anything.But I do understand the yetzer hora that causes people to justify this behavior to themselves.
I don’t think this group would exist if not for Yair Lapid’s effort to draft Lomdey Torah.(They didn’t exist before in this demographic)) And I don’t think they are inherently evil people acting with the malevolence the blog world attributes to them.They are reacting to the threat of imprisonment the government has placed on them.Albeit in the wrong way.
Penina L’Shem Shmoyim Kivanah.March 30, 2017 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1247588
Whatever happend to the Psak of Rav Elyshiv
One should lift their head out of the Gemora , Say I Protest , and then go back to learningMarch 30, 2017 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1247596
These people don’t listen to Rav Elyashiv…or anyone else.March 30, 2017 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1247684streekgeekParticipant
I find these protests (not just the violence) so hard to watch and stomach.
I just don’t get why parents can’t teach children acceptance. Yes, there are going to be people that have different beliefs than you. It’s just the way things are. You still have to respect them as a person, as a tzelem elokim, regardless of what their beliefs are. Isn’t that a basic in Judaism? How come it isn’t enforced, let alone even taught?
We all learn the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam. Why can’t we teach and show our children the concept of Ahavas Chinam?March 31, 2017 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1247867
Streetgeek: Can I try answer you without getting stuck in the technicalities of the Zionism Debate? Let’s talk on a general level.
The attitude of “live and let live” is not a Frum attitude. You are correct that you must respect somebody who disagrees with you on the “Chicken V. Shnitzel” debate, or on the “Rosenblatt v. Koussevitzky” issue. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and to hate somebody because a preference of his is assur.
“Beliefs”, however, are not a matter of choice. The Torah tells us how to think and act, and our job is to clarify the Torah’s position and act accordingly. And if there are those who act AGAINST the Torah, especially those who are deliberately Anti-Torah, they are evil.
We say every Friday night: “אהבי ה’ שנאו רע. Those who love Hashem despise Wickedness.” This isn’t “שנאת חנם”, this is Sinah with a very positive reason. R’ Meir and Bruria famously disagreed whether to hate the Sin or the Sinners (יתמו חטאים\חוטאים מן הארץ), but both are in agreement that our world is not an egalitarian society where beliefs are a matter of choice. “Acceptance” is the one thing we do not have; we shun and reject falsehood and atheism and anti-Torah beliefs with all of our might.
Seeing people who are not observant should hurt. If somebody would publicly abuse your father, hit him and spit and degrade him, would you be able to just walk past, or would you feel emotionally involved and hurt? Every person who sins is minimizing Kovod Shamayim; is a terrible black stain in the world. It is sad when we sink to the depths that we allow others to sin; that we are so low that we maintain casual indifference to רע. We must do everything we can to promote Kiyum Torah UMizvos, and with that, Kovod Shamayim. And we must do everything we can to protect our sensitivities, that we don’t become numb to Aveiros and Kofrim.
The point of protesting is two fold:
A) “When you are hurt, you cry out”. Regardless of whether or not there is anything constructive to gain by protesting [which there generally is], protesting shows the voice of truth is still fighting. It means not bowing to the Haman by keeping a straight back. Imagine your parents, or you son, was locked up for keeping Shabbos. Would you do everything in your power to release him, and to ensure that others are able to continue keeping Shabbos?
B) It helps us. When you see a Jew doing an Aveirah with casual indifference, it is mashpiah on you. It makes sin more accessible, more real, and less terrible each time. It’s a natural phenomenon. Every time I see a Yid being Moicheh for Kovod Shabbos – shaking his fist at a car driving through the streets, or shouting “SHABBOS!” at the top of his lungs, it guards me from allowing the sight of a casual sinner from ruining my sensitivity to חטא. When hundreds of Yidden march up the roads with all their children, clad in their shabbos finery, singing “Yismechu Bemalchusecha” – it may mean nothing to the Mechallelei Shabbos, but it sure inspires courage, resistance in the Shoimrei Torah.March 31, 2017 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1247943smerelParticipant
I do not support these protests but you can not tell people who are under the threat of imprisonment for learning in Yeshiva that they should just “live and let live”, when they are protesting that threat.
You need the other side to have that attitude too to tell it to people.March 31, 2017 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1247961
Yekke2, thank you for your post.
You said so much that needed to be said.
One of our biggest problems today is our exposure to secular ideals until they become so entrenched in our minds that we think they’re OUR ideals too. We are appalled at the immodest images we might expose ourselves to when we use the internet, but we often disregard, at our peril, the poison seeping into our brains from our overexposure to secular morals and mindsets.
It sounds so nice and kind to say that we accept all people regardless of their lifestyles and behaviors. In fact the Torah does not allow us to accept deviant and heretical beliefs, actions and words, and we have to vocally reject them for the reasons you stated. Kvod Shamayim must be our top priority. Wanting to be tolerant to others doesn’t give us permission to Ch’v disregard that.
The subject of “yitamu chata’im” vs “yitamu chotim” is more complicated as you also mentioned, but the principle of firmly rejecting all forms of evil stands.March 31, 2017 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1247967
Yekke2, time is short,so I can’t answer fully. You make good points.
You touched on this, but what we have to remember, that the true ehrlicher people who shout Shabbos at a passing car, are shouting to reinforce their own shemiras mitzvos, not because we have to shout at a baal aveira. They don’t throw stones or attack them chas vesholom. The people we are complaining about here, are unfortunately misguided in various ways. Hitting out at a passing woman whose dress mode does not conform to your own, or shouting nazi at a policeman, is not going to reinforce your own yiddishkeit nor have any positive effect on the subject of your abuse.March 31, 2017 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1248027
Hitting out at a passing woman whose dress mode does not conform to your own
Nobody is hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to their own. They are hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to Hashems. And that is all the difference.
I am not advocating violence. Use of violence לאפרושי מאיסורא needs clear guidance from a Posek, especially when circumstances involve the media and national law. Whatever my opinions are on the subject, I would certainly not be so presumptuous and egotistical as to argue with a Gadol Hador who paskens either way in such a shaila. And if I was to develop an opinion, I would try be as careful as I could to ensure that my position should be in accordance to Torah values, not influenced by my emotions or morals that may have invaded my mind from external Western sources.March 31, 2017 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1248042
who am i to decide which gedolim are right. i see big gedolim who were both praised by the gedolei hador of previous generations as gedolei olam taking differant sides on the way to deal with these matters.
However in truth there are 2 ways to find out what is da’as torah.
1) what the gedolei torah say.
2) what bala batim – who aren’t chachomim say.
Why? because the Sm”a in Choshen Mishpat says that דעת בעלי בתים הפך דעת תורה because Hashem says כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם Hashem machashavos are differant then the natural thought process of mankind only through the study of HIS Torah day and night for many many years can we begin to understand the correct approach of Torah.
in this situation method 1 to reach daas Torah is split for there are gedolei olam on each side however method two seems to lead to a clear conclusion. amongst people who are engrossed in torah all day i see a split in opinions but a see all the people who dont learn and all the people who never felt they must follow exactly what the gedolim say in so many other situations – they all seem to be on one side…
i cant stop laughing when i see people who have no shaychus to torah emphatically stating there personal veiws on matters the gedolei hador disagree over – when will they realize that whatever they say is just strengthening the opposing veiw…
if they want to support their opinions they should pretend they support the opposite side…
there’s a famous story about two of the greatest gedolim of the last century Rav Meir Simcha the ohr samei’ach and the Ragachover Gaon. they had a big argument and could not come to an agreement so they decided to ask an someone who was unlearned in Torah and who ever he would say like the other was really correct…March 31, 2017 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1248043
dont worry about giving the chareidy world a bad name. Only people who ignore the actions of tens of thousands and instead judge them by the actions of a little kid will thing bad about them and those people probably think all jews are thieves anyway because look at Bernei Madoff
no need to worry noone with a little brains thinks that way despite the instigation by anti religious news outlets – See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/ywn-videos/1245936/watch-this-violent-peleg-yerushalmi-protesters-kick-and-beat-woman-call-her-names-until-rescued-by-cops.html#commentsMarch 31, 2017 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1248049
@TheRealStory: A bit aggressive, but good point nonetheless (referring to your first post, about Daas Balabatim).
Interestingly enough, I read in one of the biographies of R’ Chaim Solovetchik zt”l that he when he finished a shtickel Torah, he would walk over to the first Baal Haboss he met in Shul and tell him over the Yesoid. If the Ba’al Habos wouldn’t understand it the first time, R’ Chaim would discard the vort because it wasn’t glatt. He had an interesting rationale to his ‘experiment’, which I can’t remember accurately. I’ll try look it up if I have a chance.March 31, 2017 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1248046
“They are hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to Hashems.”
Does their action conform to Hashems will?March 31, 2017 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1248063
apushatayid – good point just be clear “they” is one little kid” out of tens of thousands of bnei Torah! please explain then bhow we could be upset when antisemites say all jews are thieves because of bernie madoff?
Yekke2 thank you
dont know about story but the halacha is decided by the sema in shulchan aruch
shout out to all balei batim: please voice your opinions being that the gedolim are split we could really really use themMarch 31, 2017 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1248057
Does their action conform to Hashems will?
Use of violence לאפרושי מאיסורא needs clear guidance from a Posek.March 31, 2017 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1248105
i have nothing against balah batim, i happened to be one myself (or else i wouldnt be waisting time on the web) but thats why i dont express personal opinions on matters that gedolei hador disagree about.
every balah bos is unbeleivably holy and needed in klal yisroel!
just the question a torah jew asks is what is hashems veiw on the matter and that we can only know from gedolei torah our natural is usually off as hashem says כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי
so all we have left is to listen to the gedolei torah (or the balei batim and figure out whats the oppisite thats why when gedolim argue balei batim need to speak up dont be shy we need you here)
– See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/ywn-videos/1247370/watch-angry-israelis-take-matters-into-their-own-hands-after-peleg-yerushalmi-block-roads-inconveniencing-thousands.html#comment-1299747March 31, 2017 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1248110
For the sake of clarity, I was responding to yekke, who was responding to a poster wondering why parents aren’t teaching their children “ahavas chinam” and “acceptance”.
As is obvious from my earlier post and from yekke’s, neither of us is advocating violence.
People on all sides of the issue, when becoming overly excited and overly emotional, are prone to making poor choices, and may arrive at false conclusions.March 31, 2017 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1248115
For those who favor protesting because hashem is angry
Do you also favor physically punishing those who commit fraud and those who commit Abuse?
Do you advocate locking up an abuser so he doesnt get outsideMarch 31, 2017 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1248117
thank you anonymous for answering my call so quickly and proving my point so eloquently!
Any other balah batim could help me out here as well!
(just a side note – you really beleive any any gedolim would be opposed to blocking traffic to protest if people were murdering frum people by the hundreds or do you just not believe the gemara that it is worse to cause one to sin then to murder him or does your das bala bayis argue with the this das torah that causing chareidy youth to go into the army is causing one to sin>? or do you not believe the army statistics that the rate of service by chareidim has gone up due to their aggressive campaign to get weaker chareidim to join? (not that it makes a difference just wondering what goes on in the mind of an antichareidy whose obviously not the brightest knife in the drawer)the answer is ofcourse all gedolim agree in such situations you can block traffic all of them at times when they felt that was the best way to prevent spiritual destruction in this situation some gedolei hador think this is a way to stem the destruction and some dont a bala bas’s opinion on the web just strengthens the opposite sideMarch 31, 2017 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1248097zaltzvasserParticipant
Please close this thread! I didn’t even read it, but I can tell just from the title that it’s full of lashon hara. Keeping this open is being nichshal everyone who reads or posts on this thread.
- The topic ‘Video of woman being attacked at peleg protest’ is closed to new replies.