Vien: Chasidus or Oberlander?

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  • #602097

    hershi
    Member

    Is Vien a Chasidus or is it Oberlander?

    #852685

    sam4321
    Participant

    It was oberlander first turned into chassidish later on.

    #852686

    It’s a “we’re really frum and we don’t want to wear short jackets and we like shtreimels and we speak Yiddish and so we’ll just unintentionally / unconsciously turn into chassidim” thing.

    There are plenty of similar groups. Dushinsky became a ‘chassidus’, same for most of the other Yerushalmi groups. They don’t have any mesorah from the Besht.

    #852687

    Doswin
    Member

    Sam4: How did it change?

    #852689

    seeallsides
    Participant

    Almost everybody in Williamsburg became more chassidish – There are barely any ‘real oberlenders’ left- all their kids wear shtreimel.

    #852690

    bpt
    Participant

    “There are barely any ‘real oberlenders’ left- all their kids wear shtreimel.”

    Oh, do you have it down pat. Walk into Vien on 50th st (either bldg) and you can count on one hand the number of down-brim hats, and neckties.

    #852691

    Doswin
    Member

    I thought Vienner generally don’t wear shtreimels. Usually an “up-hat” (as opposed to a down-hat). And the Vienner Rov is called just that, and is not referred to as a “Rebbe”.

    #852692

    hershi
    Member

    How about Mattersdorf / Yeshiva Ch’san Sofer?

    #852693

    DF
    Member

    I was always wondering why the vieners are all wearing shtreimlach today. You think they’d be wearing them if shtreimlach looked today the way they looked 30 years ago?

    And besides chasidim are very makpid on mesoirah and minhagim. They should be thinking ” Why am i not following my father’s mesoirah and davening ashkenaz,mustache only, oberlander havarah, etc.” ( And Vien in Williamsburg changed to sefard. What’s up with that?? )

    #852694

    Doswin
    Member

    Oberlander havara is the same as Chasidish havara.

    What Nusach does Vien daven, and has it ever changed?

    And how are shtreimlech today different than they were 30 years ago?

    #852695

    DF
    Member

    doswin: you must be relatively young. Oberlander havara is NOT the same as standard chasidisha havara. Vien should be nusach ashkenaz, and shtreimlach 30 years ago were flattter an uglier.

    #852696

    Doswin
    Member

    Oberlander havara is very similar to Chasidish. Certainly much closer to that than to Litvish havara. The only difference between Chasidish and Oberlander havara that comes to mind is tzaayraai (C) instead of tzeirei (O).

    #852697

    MHY
    Participant

    Vien is of Oberlander background. The Oberlander community though, has changed over the years. Unterlanders (Chasidishe Hungarians, Unterland being the opposite of Oberland) came in to the kehillah. Chasidishe Rabbonim were hired, who at times tried to make things more Chasidish. Some of the Oberlander (perhaps as a reaction to the above) joined other Ashkenazishe groups such as Yeshivish, Chasidish, and Modern Orthodox.

    A few years ago the Williamsburg branch changed to nusach Sfard. But that wasn’t because all the old Oberlanders converted, rather that there were hardly any left in that neighborhood, and the Viener Rav/Rebbe had brought Chasidishe in. The main Vien in BP still davens Ashkenaz.

    To say that all the Oberlander kids wear shtreimels is not true. You can find Ashkenaz Oberlander kids in places like Lakewood and elsewhere.

    #852698

    @doswin: the same havarah is also used by some chassidim, specifically in Dushinsky it is used also. “avoiseini” instead of “avoisaini”, as an example.

    Many Hungarians say it like that. The “ai” is a Polish thing though nowadays it seems more common, since in general it seems many people move towards either 1 Litvishe havarah or 1 chassidishe with seemingly no variations and nothing in between. I don’t think it was historically like that.

    #852699

    Doswin
    Member

    Satmar and Minkatch, which are Hungarian not Polish, says avoisaini not avoiseini (and always has said it as such, afaik.)

    #852700

    MHY
    Participant

    Gatesheader – the Boyaner Rebbe also says it that way.

    #852701

    DavidA
    Member

    Vien is not a Chassidus.

    Vien is Chassidish, but it ain’t a “Chassidus”

    A Chassidus has Chassidim, in fact it usually has many Chassidim.

    However, Vien under the current Rav/Rebbe is bankrupt.

    It lost all its Yeshivas/Mesivtas, its Great Shul in Williamsburg is empty, etc, etc,

    So, yes Vien is Chassidish, but don’t confuse it with a Chassidus

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