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Health: So you would teach your child a lesson in having respect by locking her up for 3 months in a small cell with complete strangers and take away 50 weeks of her salary at $200 a week and force her to sell her jewelry to go free?
This is chinuch to you?
You are confusing respect with pure fear and terror of people who have the ability to psychologically torture you and ruin your life. You think what the judge did causes sincere respect?
I agree with you that it is not the judges fault that this is what the constitution calls for (separation of church and state) but that has nothing to do with whether they are entitled to respect due to their position when their position (the American legal system) does not respect Torah and is inherently corrupt. Just because it is not their fault does not entitle them to respect.
“You think what the judge did causes sincere respect?”
The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect. Her parents are. His job is to preserve the dignity and decorum of the courtroom. He did. You didnt see any other kids waiting for their hearing mouth off, offer snarky responses or otherwise treat their court hearing as if it was a trip to the ice cream store, did you?
As for the american legal system. You appear to be stating that since it is not a halachic system, it is a corrupt system that has no legal authority and should not be respected. Please correct me if I misunderstand you.
Daniel Rosen -“Health: So you would teach your child a lesson in having respect by locking her up for 3 months in a small cell with complete strangers and take away 50 weeks of her salary at $200 a week and force her to sell her jewelry to go free?”
My kids would never act like this to require such punishment!
If your kids do -then s/o has to teach them and this is what this Judge did.
The parents fell down on the job and they probably realized this and shelled out for the bail.
Teaching starts before the kids lose control, but afterwards the State steps in.
Are you Mecahnech your kids or do you wait for the Gov. to do it after they get caught doing criminal acts?!?!
apushatayid – +1
TY for responding for me.
“Teaching starts before the kids lose control, but afterwards the State steps in. My kids would never act like this to require such punishment!
If your kids do -then s/o has to teach them and this is what this Judge did.”
So now you are saying the judge WAS in fact teaching HER personally to have respect.
But you then agreed with apushatayid who said: “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect.”
Respectfully, please realize your logical inaccuracy.
“but afterwards the State steps in.” You make this statement as if it is chok and mishpat. My point is that it is not chok and mishpat.
In fact, a major posek in eretz yisroel Rov Yitzchak Berkowitz tells us it is assur for a Jew to take another Jew to a secular court or have another Jew sent to jail unless there is a real threat of future serious danger. Even then there is a warning required and only if no beis din can handle it. It is not mutar to take “revenge” on someone by bringing them to a secular court if they are no longer a danger. This applies to non-Jews as well if you know they will be hurt or tortured in immoral and unjust courts. You cannot cause harm to another human being in this way.
The secular court system has no inherent legal authority. It has force- simple as that. If someone, Jew or Gentile, respects that system it is up to them. I see no reason why it would be IMMORAL to show a lack of respect to a court system that took away your liberty when you felt they did not have a right to take away that liberty. Do I believe the court system is often corrupt- yes, I do based on my intimate knowledge of it. Do I think what that judge did was immoral? Yes I do.
Health: We live in a Dor of “Chutzpa Yasgi” even with Yidden -the Judge taught a lesson”
Excuse me but you were clearly saying the issue is a derech eretz problem in our society.
Therefore, this statement “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect. Her parents are. His job is to preserve the dignity and decorum of the courtroom.” in response to my statement “”You think what the judge did causes sincere respect?” is illogical.
apushatayid: “Please correct me if I misunderstand you.”
I am not going to continue a dialog with you because you accused me on being high on Xanax which shows a lack of basic derech eretz. If someone is rude- all you have to do is ignore them. I don’t know how old you are and I don’t know what yeshiva you go to or if you even attend a yeshiva. But I would bet if you did you would never say a comment like that to someone if people knew who you were behind that computer screen.
apushatayid: “Are you high on Xanax?”
Besides the fact that Daniel Rosen is 100% right, it think it is ironic how you are the one showing such a lack of derech eretz when you are the one arguing how severely a lack of derech eretz should be punished.
The issue comes down to who was more immoral: The judge or the girl. As DR said, I do not think it is immoral to show a lack of respect to a man-made, flawed and possibly corrupt system that threw you in prison for a reason you legit. disagree with. I do think it is immoral to take someone away from their loved ones and family and make them give you all the money they make for an entire year because they were rude.
BTW, Do you know that in accordance with the legal system of the State of Washington it would be illegal for Avroham Avinu to marry Sarah because they prohibit first cousin marriage but it is perfectly legal for two men to marry each-other? Can anyone make sense of this?
Would the people who say “the law is the law whether you agree with it or not” agree with these statements:
In the 19th century, proponents of slavery often defended the institution as a “necessary evil”. White people of that time feared that emancipation of black slaves would have more harmful social and economic consequences than the continuation of slavery.
In 1820, Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, wrote in a letter that with slavery:
We have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.[118]
Robert E. Lee wrote in 1856:
There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.[119]
Now you can see the difference between our system of law and our poskim apposed to secular law. We are following the same halacha and learn the same books now as we did in the 1800’s going all the way back thousands of doros. Secular law changes with the times and whims of the generation.
If you are going to say that the girl was 100% percent wrong for being rude to a system that took away her freedom then you at least have to be consistent and say the court of 200 years ago in the US deserves the same respect. After all- “denei demalchusa…”
Daniel Rosen -“So now you are saying the judge WAS in fact teaching HER personally to have respect.”
Of course I am!
“But you then agreed with apushatayid who said: “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect.”
Respectfully, please realize your logical inaccuracy.
“but afterwards the State steps in.””
I agreed with him that in the first place it isn’t the Judge’s responsibility, but only after she broke laws. Btw, this is what I think he meant.
“You make this statement as if it is chok and mishpat. My point is that it is not chok and mishpat.”
No, this is the way it works, nothing to do with the Torah. And what he did was Not against the Torah.
“In fact, a major posek in eretz yisroel Rov Yitzchak Berkowitz tells us it is assur for a Jew to take another Jew to a secular court or have another Jew sent to jail unless there is a real threat of future serious danger. Even then there is a warning required and only if no beis din can handle it. It is not mutar to take “revenge” on someone by bringing them to a secular court if they are no longer a danger. This applies to non-Jews as well if you know they will be hurt or tortured in immoral and unjust courts. You cannot cause harm to another human being in this way.
The secular court system has no inherent legal authority. It has force- simple as that.”
That’s nice -So what?
“If someone, Jew or Gentile, respects that system it is up to them. I see no reason why it would be IMMORAL to show a lack of respect to a court system that took away your liberty when you felt they did not have a right to take away that liberty. Do I believe the court system is often corrupt- yes, I do based on my intimate knowledge of it. Do I think what that judge did was immoral? Yes I do.”
Well, you are quite mistaken. While the system might be corrupt, the Judge isn’t. I don’t know who taught you Torah, but there is a Chiyuv to give every human being respect. This girl clearly didn’t -so her act was immoral, not the Judges’!
“Excuse me but you were clearly saying the issue is a derech eretz problem in our society.
Therefore, this statement “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect. Her parents are. His job is to preserve the dignity and decorum of the courtroom.” in response to my statement “”You think what the judge did causes sincere respect?” is illogical.”
I think he taught her a good lesson and that’s why she apologized and didn’t open her mouth anymore.
wasserman -It sounds like you are DR, just under a different SN.
“The issue comes down to who was more immoral: The judge or the girl. As DR said, I do not think it is immoral to show a lack of respect to a man-made, flawed and possibly corrupt system that threw you in prison for a reason you legit. disagree with. I do think it is immoral to take someone away from their loved ones and family and make them give you all the money they make for an entire year because they were rude.”
Her lack of respect also showed a lack of respect to the Judge as person, not just to him as a member of our Gov.!
“If you are going to say that the girl was 100% percent wrong for being rude to a system that took away her freedom then you at least have to be consistent and say the court of 200 years ago in the US deserves the same respect. After all- “denei demalchusa…””
Her being rude to the system is Ok. This is shown by demonstrating in front of State legislators or in front of Congress. Her being Rude to this Judge has nothing to do with the System. Being Rude over here -just makes her a Muchutzav! She deserved anything he threw at her.
Health “Her lack of respect also showed a lack of respect to the Judge as person, not just to him as a member of our Gov.!”
Tell me, if I am rude to you as a person does that give me the right to take you away from your family and loved ones and make you give all the money you make for an entire year back to the system I represent?
“Her being rude to the system is Ok. This is shown by demonstrating in front of State legislators or in front of Congress. Her being Rude to this Judge has nothing to do with the System. Being Rude over here -just makes her a Muchutzav! She deserved anything he threw at her.”
If her being rude to the judge has nothing to do with being rude to the system and is only a “personal matter” than why does she deserve anything he threw at her?
“DR: But you then agreed with apushatayid who said: “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect.”
Respectfully, please realize your logical inaccuracy.
“but afterwards the State steps in.” You: “I agreed with him that in the first place it isn’t the Judge’s responsibility, but only after she broke laws. Btw, this is what I think he meant.””
No he was saying that the judge was not trying to teach her respect but rather he was upholding the decorum of the court and had nothing to do with teaching her anything.
He clearly said: “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect. Her parents are. His job is to preserve the dignity and decorum of the courtroom. He did.”
He might take back what he said but that is clearly what he had said originally.
To be honest, I think your thinking is convoluted and other people will be able to see that though I do not have the time to respond to your other posts. PS: Just because I agree with someone else and not with you does not make us the same person.
poppa wrote “See, that is intellectual honesty. And that is why this person also should not be a judge. “
Say that to this judge and he’ll also throw you in jail…
I agree that she was not acting in a manner suited for a court setting. I don’t know how many of you realized this though- that wasn’t a regular courtroom setting. She was wearing a prisoners uniform and another girl was waiting in line behind her. She was acting silly at first, not really rude- just silly. The judge set her bail and told her good bye. She said adios- which means good bye- back. He called her back and doubled her bail. She got angry that the bail was doubled for no reason and cursed the judge… I say none were right, but a judge is supposed to set an example. I’d side with the girl on the bail.
Gamanit: “I don’t know how many of you realized this though- that wasn’t a regular courtroom setting. She was wearing a prisoners uniform and another girl was waiting in line behind her.”
Yes, the reason she was wearing a uniform is because it was only a bond hearing. The point of a bond hearing is typiclly to tell if the defendant is a flight risk and how by what means the money will be obtained. In FL bond hearings are held within 24 hrs of the arrest.
Health: “That’s nice -So what?”
I was explaining how halacha views the secular court system. I think my point was faily obvious. I am sorry you did not understand it.
“Her being rude to the system is Ok. This is shown by demonstrating in front of State legislators or in front of Congress.”
What are you talking about? She is a teenager without a penny to her name. The more I read your statements the less I understand them. Please open your eyes to halacha and the reality of our secular courts.
wasserman -“Tell me, if I am rude to you as a person does that give me the right to take you away from your family and loved ones and make you give all the money you make for an entire year back to the system I represent?”
If I had that right to, why not? The Judge had that right -whether you gave him permission or not. It’s like a father hitting a son or a Rebbe hitting a student.
“If her being rude to the judge has nothing to do with being rude to the system and is only a “personal matter” than why does she deserve anything he threw at her?”
She deserved it – like I just explained.
“No he was saying that the judge was not trying to teach her respect but rather he was upholding the decorum of the court and had nothing to do with teaching her anything.
He clearly said: “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect. Her parents are. His job is to preserve the dignity and decorum of the courtroom. He did.”
He might take back what he said but that is clearly what he had said originally.”
Perhaps -I’m not him.
“To be honest, I think your thinking is convoluted and other people will be able to see that though I do not have the time to respond to your other posts.”
Well I think your posts are illogical. I’m not asking you what you think about my posts, but since you gave me your opinion -I’ll give you mine about yours!
And posters who say they don’t have the time to answer is usually due to the fact that they don’t have any logical answers.
“PS: Just because I agree with someone else and not with you does not make us the same person.”
That’s true, but it was the similarity in the way you posted that makes me think this way.
Daniel Rosen -“I was explaining how halacha views the secular court system. I think my point was faily obvious. I am sorry you did not understand it.”
Oh, I know how Halacha views the system and that’s why I said -“That’s nice -So what?”
“What are you talking about? She is a teenager without a penny to her name. The more I read your statements the less I understand them. Please open your eyes to halacha and the reality of our secular courts.”
I know Halacha and our Court system probably better than you.
Save your Mercy for this girl for s/o that deserves it.
Her parents failed on the job and they probably by now realize it – so they should help her out financially and anyway they can.
I seem to be getting the notion from You that since the Justice System is Not based on Torah – anyone can do whatever they want.
This is the farthest idea from Torah. It’s Not a Hefker Velt!
She added insult to injury and she got punished until she learned her lesson on the added insult.
Health:
Me: “If I am rude to you personally does that give me the right to take you away and send you to prison until you pay me money?”
You: “If I had that right to, why not? The Judge had that right -whether you gave him permission or not. It’s like a father hitting a son or a Rebbe hitting a student.”
Me: “If her being rude to the judge has nothing to do with being rude to the system and is only a “personal matter” than why does she deserve anything he threw at her? (i.e. a month in a jail cell with total (possibly dangerous) strangers”
You: “She deserved it – like I just explained.”
You: “And posters who say they don’t have the time to answer is usually due to the fact that they don’t have any logical answers.”
Me (now): No I really just don’t want to talk to you anymore.
I think that about sums it up. So can we stop talking and let other people have a say? You are wrong, just admit it and have some rachmanus for that poor girl and all the other poor victims of the system.
Health:
Me: “If I am rude to you personally does that give me the right to take you away and send you to prison until you pay me money?”
You: “It’s like a father hitting a son or a Rebbe hitting a student.”
It’s like a father hitting a son or a Rebbe hitting a student? Excuse me? You can’t see how a father hitting a child is different than a judge sentencing a girl to 30 days in a prison cell with strangers for being rude is different than a father hitting a student?
You: “If I had that right to, why not? The Judge had that right -whether you gave him permission or not.”
No Health I am sorry but you are wrong. People do have have the right to do whatever they want. The United States legal system was founded by breaking the laws of the Native Americans and founded their own laws by force. Why on earth do you think that if the United States Constitution or State Constitution says it is legal that makes it morally acceptable? The entire thread in the fist place is about what is morally acceptable or not.
Me: “If her being rude to the judge has nothing to do with being rude to the system and is only a “personal matter” than why does she deserve anything he threw at her? (i.e. a month in a jail cell with total (possibly dangerous) strangers”
You: “She deserved it – like I just explained.”
I don’t really think you explained it in any logical manner.
You: “And posters who say they don’t have the time to answer is usually due to the fact that they don’t have any logical answers.”
Me (now): No I really just don’t want to talk to you anymore.
I think that about sums it up. So can we stop talking and let other people have a say? You are wrong, just admit it and have some rachmanus for other people.
Health: I am just going to let you continue talking……
Health:
Oh, I know how Halacha views the system and that’s why I said -“That’s nice -So what?”
“I know Halacha and our Court system probably better than you.
Save your Mercy for this girl for s/o that deserves it.
Her parents failed on the job and they probably by now realize it – so they should help her out financially and anyway they can.”
One may not accept an akkum (gentile) as judge. The Shach immediately qualifies this halacha.
One may not be mekabel (accept) and indeed kabala does not help, is the institution of Arkhaoth. The institution of gentile courts, the institution of gentile law, the acceptance of the gentile judicial system is something we cannot accept. The acceptance of the system of Arkhaoth is pure issur, and hence making a condition to contravene the Torah will be of no avail, because with issurim, obviously, his condition has no validity.
This may be the meaning of a seemingly strange equation posited by R’ Yosef B’khor Shor who says the following:
“Our Rabbis interpreted be judged ‘before them’ and not ‘before the judges of the gentiles.’ For just as it is written ‘from amongst your brothers you shall appoint to yourself a King,’ (Deut. 17:15) likewise the Torah warns not to appoint a gentile judge on Israel.”
In other words, the halacha puts the stress on not accepting the institution of nochrim (non-Jews). Whether we deal with political institutions or judicial institutions – Arkhaoth – it is the institution of Nochrim that we may not accept upon ourselves.
I took that from R”Simcha Krauss. This is relevant because you are the one arguing that the secular court has the moral authority to do whatever they want. I am not trying to embarrass you but please see how foolish you are being. Every new statement you make like “I know more halacha and about the secular courts than you do” or “what the judge did is just like ones father hitting him” simply makes you look uneducated both in regard to halacha & hashkafa. I am not trying to embarrass you and sorry if I did.
sorry, but a link to this video DOES NOT belong on the yeshiva world.
maskim. i was gonna say so but i figured it wouldnt do anything.
wasserman -“Me (now): No I really just don’t want to talk to you anymore.”
That’s fine with me. You don’t have to ever post to me again.
“I think that about sums it up. So can we stop talking and let other people have a say?”
Noone ever stopped anyone else from posting.
“You are wrong, just admit it and have some rachmanus for that poor girl and all the other poor victims of the system.”
No, You are wrong & You should just admit it!
Having Rachmonus when you should be an Achzur, which is the right way by this criminal JD girl – to be an Achzur, will only cause you to be an Achzur when you should have Rachmonus. This we learn from Shaul Hamelech.
Ever hear of him?
Daniel Rosen -“Health: I am just going to let you continue talking……”
So why is the next post from you & not from me?!?!
And here it is:
“One may not accept an akkum (gentile) as judge. The Shach immediately qualifies this halacha.
One may not be mekabel (accept) and indeed kabala does not help, is the institution of Arkhaoth. The institution of gentile courts, the institution of gentile law, the acceptance of the gentile judicial system is something we cannot accept. The acceptance of the system of Arkhaoth is pure issur, and hence making a condition to contravene the Torah will be of no avail, because with issurim, obviously, his condition has no validity.
This may be the meaning of a seemingly strange equation posited by R’ Yosef B’khor Shor who says the following:
“Our Rabbis interpreted be judged ‘before them’ and not ‘before the judges of the gentiles.’ For just as it is written ‘from amongst your brothers you shall appoint to yourself a King,’ (Deut. 17:15) likewise the Torah warns not to appoint a gentile judge on Israel.”
In other words, the halacha puts the stress on not accepting the institution of nochrim (non-Jews). Whether we deal with political institutions or judicial institutions – Arkhaoth – it is the institution of Nochrim that we may not accept upon ourselves.
I took that from R”Simcha Krauss.”
Thank you for the Chazara of the Halacha.
“This is relevant because you are the one arguing that the secular court has the moral authority to do whatever they want. I am not trying to embarrass you but please see how foolish you are being. Every new statement you make like “I know more halacha and about the secular courts than you do” or “what the judge did is just like ones father hitting him” simply makes you look uneducated both in regard to halacha & hashkafa. I am not trying to embarrass you and sorry if I did.”
The only one you are embarrassing is Yourself. Time for you to learn some Halacha. Like I said before, the Gov. has a Torah right to make laws. These laws should be in accordance with the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach, but even if they are not – if they make laws that are for the good of e/o – the Torah agrees with these laws. Laws against Drug activity would be included with this. Having contempt of the Court trying to uphold these “Good” laws would also be included. This is the reason that what this Judge did is Moral since what he did was acc. to the Torah.
I don’t know who told/taught you differently, but it’s Krum. If you paid for this Torah education -you should demand a refund!
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