May 11, 2016 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1152337
Sean Hannity brought up a good point actually,
Whoever becomes president will nominate the next Supreme Court judge, and Hillary for sure will elect a left wing judge, and you can only get better with trumpMay 11, 2016 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1152338
The President does NOT elect a Supreme Court Justice (they are not called judges). The President nominates and the Senate must confirm. Unless the Democrats take control of the Senate, a Supreme Court Justice nominee by a Democratic President will be middle of the road.May 12, 2016 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1152339
Really? You’re going to nitpick my words?
I used the term nominate be trump, I know the process for nominating Supreme Court justices.
People mistype sometimes
Anyways for Clinton I should have used the term appoints (as in what a queen does with ministers)May 12, 2016 2:26 am at 2:26 am #1152340
Yidd23 -“The Clintons and the Trumps are two sides of the same coin.
What Donald did shows bad character”
No one is saying Trump is a Tzaddik. But if you compare Hillary and Trump, Trump is way better! Hillary has no self-respect!
How could she stand by & support that philander Billy Boy?!?May 12, 2016 2:48 am at 2:48 am #1152341
Feivel -“Nowadays that’s a centrist. Pretty much a generally accepted attitude. If this dive isn’t halted …”
Right now – she’s very left wing. Most of the country doesn’t believe in Gay marriage! If the left gets into power, they will push their liberal agenda on the rest of us!May 12, 2016 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1152342
Donald Trump and Bill Clinton are almost the same person!May 12, 2016 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1152343
Yidd23 -“Donald Trump and Bill Clinton are almost the same person!”
Right, and they both have Jewish son-in-laws. But Trump’s son-in-law is Frum & Clinton’s son-in-law married a Goy!May 12, 2016 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1152344
1. The owner of the wedding hall is renting his property explicitly to be used for an aveira.
2. If it can force a baker to bake a cake why can’t it force someone to perform a marriage? Both are providing services.
3. Ask Oregon Judge Vance Day about judges refusing to perform same-sex marriages.
4. POTUS appoints Federal judges. In particular, there are three justices on SCOTUS who are around the eighty year old mark so the next one might well be able to setthe legal tone in America for the next generation.May 12, 2016 6:01 am at 6:01 am #1152345
I don’t get it, Health. Hillary Clinton can’t support Bill Clinton but you can support Donald Trump?May 12, 2016 10:11 am at 10:11 am #1152346
You change the scenario I presented.
I said the hall is rented for a celebration meal. I did not say a marriage takes place there. Frum people do things differently than most of American society. Most Americans get married in a Church or other place of Worship or at Town/City Hall and then choose a place for a party. The chances are a Frum couple renting a wedding hall will not be same-sex.
Same sex marriage law does not require a baker to do anything. There are other laws that deal with discrimination against someone because of sexual orientation. That is not what was under discussion here.
I’m not in Oregon, neither are you. State laws vary.
I would hope the President gets to make appointments to the Supreme Court. The current Republican led Judiciary Committee is shirking their responsibility in holding hearings on a current nomination.
The next President has no more right to appoint than the current one.
Vote for whomever you wish, I’ll not be voting for Trump.
I’ll not be following up on this thread anytime soon. Mrs. CTL is having another surgery this morning.May 12, 2016 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1152347
I will bl”n daven for Bina Chanah Bas Chayah Rochel. May the surgery be successful and she have a refuah sheleimah.May 12, 2016 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1152348
1. Oregon may be in the headlines but this is their declared national agenda.
2. Even if the celebration is in another place the baker is compelled to participate in the celebration by providing a cake. If it is a plain cake then you have a case as they are allowed to eat cake. However, putting “Congratulations on your marriage” seems to me to be compelled speech. how SCOTUS will go will depend very much on who are the justices – as Gobitis and Barnette discovered.
3. Please cite the law that obligates them to consider a nomination.
4. Refua sheleima.May 12, 2016 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1152349
She should have a refuah sheleimah bkarovMay 12, 2016 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1152350
Yidd23 -“I don’t get it, Health. Hillary Clinton can’t support Bill Clinton but you can support Donald Trump?”
You read my posts under “Who’s worse Clinton or Trump”? I said Clinton is worse! I’ll support Trump, because he’s better than Clinton.
I’m not going to marry him, even if the libs make it the law in the whole country!May 12, 2016 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1152351Sam2Participant
Avi K: It’s their jobs. There is no law that they have to show up or vote or do anything, other than the fact that they are obligated to do their jobs.May 12, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1152352
Sam, actually it might be better if they did not show up. “No man’s liberty or property is safe so long as the legislature is in session” (either Mark Twain or Gideon John Tucker). In any case, they have the right to reject a nomination. Not considering it is something like a pocket veto.May 12, 2016 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1152353dovrosenbaumParticipant
In America, a business owner should be permitted to refuse service to anyone for any reason they desire. Anything else is a violation of property rights, which is the cornerstone of our liberty in this country.May 12, 2016 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1152354
DY and CA thank you for your prayers and thoughts. Mrs. CTL is resting comfortably. Today’s surgery was B”H without complication but there will be more coming.
Even though we kibbitz and disagree on politics and such wen it comes to the important things, the members of the Coffee Room always pull together as am echad.May 12, 2016 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1152355
Health, would you advise your neighbor’s daughter to marry him?May 12, 2016 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1152356
You just don’t get it. Selling some one a cake doesn’t make a baker a participant in a marriage ceremony.
I was in the kosher bakery business in the 1970s. We were out of town. We had many non-Jewish customers and at least 10 times as many non-kosher keeping Jewish customers than those who observed hilchos kashrus.
Once a cake was paid for and left our premises, we had nothing to do with what food it was served with or where it was served. Selling a cake didn’t make us participants in the events. Even writing a sentiment on the cake didn’t make us participants. In fact our involvement ceased the moment the cake was paid for and title passed.
You have no clue what compelled speech means. The government has to compel the speech. Here the same sex couple wants to buy a cake, they can’t compel a baker to inscribe anything. They can merely choose to buy elsewhere if the baker does not wish to write a particular sentiment. What the baker cannot do in some states is say I won’t do this because you are gay. The baker can say I choose not to have your business because it is in conflict with my religious principles.
Remember the Freedoms in the Bill of Rights and guarantees such as Freedom of Speech refer to Government action, not that of individuals.
As for the Senate’s responsibility to consider a Supreme Court nomination, it is not a law, it is in Article 2 Section 2 of the US Constitution. “He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court,…”
The President has the power to appoint Supreme Court Judges with the advise and Consent of the Senate. If POTUS makes an appointment this lays out the Senate’s obligation to render advice and requires consent for confirmation. You don’t need laws for what is already in the Constitution.May 12, 2016 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1152357
CTL, glad to hear.May 12, 2016 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1152358
What the baker cannot do in some states is say I won’t do this because you are gay. The baker can say I choose not to have your business because it is in conflict with my religious principles.
How are those different? Is it just semantics?May 12, 2016 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1152359Sam2Participant
CTL: Correct. It is illegal discrimination to refuse to sell someone a cake, no matter what the grounds. The case in Oregon was that a bakery refused to make a cake specially for a wedding. And that is a tremendous difference.May 12, 2016 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1152360
Sorry, to correct you. I can refuse to sell any individual a cake, just because I don’t like them. I cannot refuse to sell them a cake because of Race, Age, National Origin, and in some states gender and sexual orientation.
If I refuse to sell Joe Schmoe a cake because I don’t like him….fine, but if I also do so to Sam Schwartz, Chaim Cohen and Murray Klein, then the chances are an investigation may take place to see if I am just refusing to sell to Jews.
Please remember, most of us US Coffee Room members live in the northeast or other ‘Blue’ states. The Equal Rights Amendment failed ratification to the US Constitution, but it was made part of many of our state’s constitutions, such as CT and NY.
Don’t apply the rules of our forward thinking or liberal states with the rules in other places.
This discussion morphed form a comment made about a Presidential candidate and same-sex marriage which is the rule of law in the country.
Other discrimination varies by state, some legal some not.
With this I’ll end responses on this thread and care for my wife and pay a bit more attention to my law practice….B”H my newly married daughter and son in law both passed the February bar exam and are working for me, taking up the slack while I take care of Mrs. CTL.May 12, 2016 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1152361
Yidd23 -“Health, would you advise your neighbor’s daughter to marry him?”
Of course I would!
Btw, all my neighbors are Goyim, even though I live in Lakewood!
LOL 😀May 12, 2016 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1152362
How can you tell whether someone is refusing service because they’re discriminating or they just don’t like that person?May 12, 2016 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1152363
So why is it okay for your neighbor’s daughter to marry Donald Trump but not for Hillary Clinton to be married to Bill Clinton?May 13, 2016 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1152364
RebYidd23……..read the 2nd paragraph of my reply to Sam2
If there appears to be a pattern of refusal of service to a particular group an investigation may take place, followed by legal action.
In the 1950s my parents wanted to establish a new Jewish community in a small farming town 15 miles from New Haven. The farms were being sold off for development. As soon as the real estate brokers found out they were Jewish the land became unavailable. My father went to the State’s Attorney (we don’t have DAs in CT) he took the complaint and the government sent out test shoppers to see if there was in fact discrimination. 4 Brokers lost their licenses and were fined thousands of dollars when the discriminator pattern was establish by the government.
Businesses are test shopped all the time for discriminatory practices after complaints.May 13, 2016 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1152365
CTlawyer, what you say is outrageous. Supporting “civil unions” is advancing the aveirah cause. Forget about all the “siscriminations” — there is such a thing as the Torah!Btw, many people would have never gotten into this aveirah if it hadn’t been made mefursam and “normal”. We have an obligation to prevent the Goyim from violating the 7 mitzvos.May 13, 2016 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1152366
Joseph, you are wrong again. Trump is a bigger evil.May 13, 2016 10:05 am at 10:05 am #1152367
Be careful what you type. Read EVERY WORD I have posted in this thread and you will NOT find that I have supported “Civil Unions.”
I have stated that same sex marriage is the settled law of the USA. I also stated that civil marriage (NOT union) is solely a means of allowing 2 people to avail themselves of government protections and benefits.
NOWHERE will you find that I advocate same sex marriage. As a Justice of the Peace I do not perform them and the CT State Government does not require me to do so. I am NOT a government employee and can choose which marriage ceremonies I perform and which I don’t. I don’t perform intermarriages, either.May 13, 2016 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1152368
1. The point is not what the law is but what it should be. regarding the brokers, IMHO if they were only acting on their own opinions even in the absence of anti-discrimination laws they would have been liable for violating their obligation to obtain the best deals. If they were representing the feelings of the community I would have been glad to discover this and looked elsewhere.
2. The question whether regarding civil unions are acceptable halachically involves whether or not an intimate relationship is implied. For example, no one objects to nominating a friend as one’s beneficiary on an insurance policy as there is no implication beyond a desire to help him financially.May 13, 2016 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1152369
Go back 3 days and read my first post in the thread. I stressed voting and getting involved you you have a voice in setting governmental policy and law.
As long as something is the law, then what the law is the issue. Changing the law is a second issue.
A broker’s obligation is to present all offers to the seller. The seller chooses which offer to accept. Sometimes a lower price offer may be accepted, it’s not all about money.
The question of halachic acceptability is not a question of the law of the land. Our obligation to halacha does not obligate the vast majority of AmericansMay 13, 2016 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1152370
Yidd23 -“So why is it okay for your neighbor’s daughter to marry Donald Trump but not for Hillary Clinton to be married to Bill Clinton?”
You can marry anyone you want. Hillary can stay married to Bill, but she is running for president. Like I previously, ” – “Who’s worse Clinton or Trump”? I said Clinton is worse! I’ll support Trump, because he’s better than Clinton.”
She supports alternative lifestyles!May 13, 2016 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1152371
CTLAWYER, I apologize for not reading every word of your posts. I almost always do — just this time I really had to go. However, from what i did see it did appear that you are supportive or, at least, have a positive attitude towards their “rights” and their “marriages”. And that is wrong.
And see Avi K, point 2 — an excellent answer.May 13, 2016 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1152372
CTLAWYER, but OUR OBLIGATION IN HALOCHAH OBLIGATES US TO SUPPORT OR OPPOSE certain things.May 13, 2016 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1152373
Health: So if your neighbor’s daughter married Trump, she couldn’t run for president? And you seemed to be confusing the two Clintons a little?May 15, 2016 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1152374
Yidd23 -“And you seemed to be confusing the two Clintons a little?”
Not at all! Hillary supports things that aren’t marriages, like 2 two men together.May 15, 2016 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1152375
If your adherence to or your accepted interpretation of Halacha requires opposition to a certain law, then you have choices of: working within the system to change the law, breaking the law and suffering the legal consequences, moving to a country with different laws…..or (and I do not advocate this) overthrow the government <see how well that worked for Jewish Bolshevists in the long run>.May 15, 2016 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1152376
“Secretary Clinton is not a Liberal, she is a Centrist”
Not that anyone will care, as most commenters here have accepted the massive amounts of motzi shem ra against her, but a strong argument can be made that Clinton is the most conservative Democratic nominee since 1924.May 15, 2016 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1152377
“see how well that worked for Jewish Bolshevists in the long run”
To be fair, Trotsky was the only Jew directly involved with the Bolshevik Revolution in a major capacity. And he had only been a Bolshevik for a few months.May 15, 2016 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1152378
“Most of the country doesn’t believe in Gay marriage!”
The Pew poll just showed approval of same sex marriage by 55% to 37%.
The CBS poll last fall showed approval by 56% to 34%.
The Quinnipiac poll a month earlier showed approval by 55% to 38%.
The Gallup poll a year ago showed approval of same sex marriage by 60% to 37%.
Its over, folks.May 15, 2016 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1152379
“OUR OBLIGATION IN HALOCHAH OBLIGATES US TO SUPPORT OR OPPOSE certain things.”
That isn’t clear. I have seen no rabbi object to the provisions in the US Constitution that not only legalize polytheism but allow a polytheist to become President of the United States.
Furthermore, most commenters here probably voted for the polytheist running in the last election.
To cherrypick same sex marriage is not intellectually honest.May 15, 2016 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1152380
CTlawyer, we are discussing whether or not certain laws are good for the Jews. As for Halacha not obligating most Americans, that simply is not correct. Even the gentiles are obligated by the sheva mitzvot – and according to some, such as the Rema (Responsum 10) the obligation of dinim requires them to adopt all of Choshen Mishpat. The fact that most are unaware of their obligations is another matter.
Mdd, thank you.May 15, 2016 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1152381
“the obligation of dinim requires them to adopt all of Choshen Mishpat”
Other than Rabbi Dr. Aaron Levine z’tz’l, what prominent rav has advocated for Torah standards in business conduct to be mandated in secular law?May 15, 2016 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1152382
Charliehall, you are wrong. If the polytheism were forbidden in the US, and someone wanted to make a law to permit it, you would be obligated to vote against it. Just the way things are, you can not do anything about it. So nobody is cherry picking the “gay” marriage except for you, liberals, — in order to defend it.May 15, 2016 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1152383
Charliehall, also Christianity is not forbidden for the Goyim according to Ramoh.May 15, 2016 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1152384
CH, and you are wrong about Trotsky and the Bolsheviks — you’ve got to learn some Russian history.May 15, 2016 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1152385
CharlieHall>>re: Prominent Jews in the Bolshevik regime:
“With the notable exception of Lenin (Vladimir Ulyanov), most of the leading Communists who took control of Russia in 1917-20 were Jews. Leon Trotsky (Lev Bronstein) headed the Red Army and, for a time, was chief of Soviet foreign affairs. Yakov Sverdlov (Solomon) was both the Bolshevik party’s executive secretary and — as chairman of the Central Executive Committee — head of the Soviet government. Grigori Zinoviev (Radomyslsky) headed the Communist International (Comintern), the central agency for spreading revolution in foreign countries. Other prominent Jews included press commissar Karl Radek (Sobelsohn), foreign affairs commissar Maxim Litvinov (Wallach), Lev Kamenev (Rosenfeld) and Moisei Uritsky.6
Lenin himself was of mostly Russian and Kalmuck ancestry, but he was also one-quarter Jewish. His maternal grandfather, Israel (Alexander) Blank, was a Ukrainian Jew who was later baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church.” From Mark Weber’s paper for the Institute for Historical Review.May 16, 2016 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1152386
Charlie -“Not that anyone will care, as most commenters here have accepted the massive amounts of motzi shem ra against her, but a strong argument can be made that Clinton is the most conservative Democratic nominee since 1924”
She’s far left because she’s pro-Toaivah! How many democrats since 1924 believed in gay marriage?!?
“The Pew poll just showed approval of same sex marriage by 55% to 37%”
Another reason why you shouldn’t vote Demoncrat! Until 2010 most of the country was against gay marriage. With the advent of the liberal president, (Obama), things changed for the worse!
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