Waiter’s finger was in my my soup!

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  • #1713462

    I like hot soup – bubbling hot.

    I order a soup and notice the waiter’s finger slipped into the soup.

    Is the soup still kosher? The soup had in it a human finger (which is ossur to eat, not to mention, aver min a chai)!

    Ok, I am trolling, but the simple question needs a clear concise explanation why the soup that had the waiter’s finger in it is still kosher?

    So what that the finger was attached to a live person, would the water used to boil live lobster be kosher (and would it matter if only part of the lobster was immersed)?!

    #1713476

    ujm
    Participant

    Welcome to eating in restaurants!

    This happens in almost every restaurant.

    The only difference is that the vast majority of the time you don’t see the finger in the food or the sneeze in the kitchen or the roach crawling behind the stove.

    #1713506

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Interesting question.

    A few things to consider:

    Human beings aren’t actually a b’heima t’meia. If the issur is kavod hameis, live taam wouldn’t be a problem. Also, the taam is lifgam. If you’re right about the taam from a live being not giving taam, the lobster water would still be assur because the lobster dies at some point.

    #1713509

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzen -“I order a soup and notice the waiter’s finger slipped into the soup.”

    As long as they didn’t charge extra for the added enjoyment!

    #1713513

    Meno
    Participant

    This exact thing happened to me last week, so I said, “Excuse me Sir, your finger is in my soup,” so he responded, “Oh it’s okay. It’s not that hot.”

    #1713526

    Curiosity
    Participant

    If your unwashed finger touches a boiling hot soup before you eat it, is it kosher? If a human tongue touches your boiling hot soup before you eat it, is it kosher?

    #1713528

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Why is the waiter’s finger more of a problem than your own? Have you never touched something hot before eating it? Come to think of it, what about your own mouth?

    #1713531

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Meno, I had a similar story too. I said “excuse me, the end of your tie is in my soup”. He replied “that’s okay, it’s washable.”

    #1713533

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This exact thing happened to me last week, so I said, “Excuse me Sir, your finger is in my soup,” so he responded, “Oh it’s okay. It’s not that hot.”

    It really wasn’t. I deserved a better tip than that.

    #1713543

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Your lips are also ever min hachai.
    Dont leave your day job just yet , u need a bit brushing up on frum comedy

    #1713556

    Are you saying that if live creature has an attached limb cooked in a soup – is not “polet” any “taam”?!

    Any source for this?

    Regarding human flesh, Yoreh Deah 79:1: Human flesh is prohibited by the Torah (as per Rambam, Hil Maacholos HaAsuros 2:3,Rema), but there are some who maintain that human flesh is not prohibited by the Torah (seeרמב”ן על ויקרא י״א:ג׳:א׳, Ra’avad, Rashba, and Rosh (5:19) agree with the Ramban) .

    DY – “Human beings aren’t actually a b’heima t’meia. If the issur is kavod hameis,..”. so are you saying in a case of pikuach nefesh, one is better off eating human meat than a treif chicken?!

    Jokes aside, the food at this fine dining place has a real human touch, but is the soup still kosher?

    #1713564

    marbehshalom
    Participant

    live beings are not giving off taam

    #1713588

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “would the water used to boil live lobster be kosher ”

    Yes if it remained alive

    I think this is mentioned in a teshuva of the Chasam Sofer regarding the case of the bird that flew into the butter that R’ Nosson Adler said should be discarded .
    I forget the exact details off hand I’d be happy to provide elaborate when I look it up this evening

    #1713605

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    As long as they don’t charge by weight who cares

    #1713649

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If the waiter didn’t scream or drop the bowl, it wasn’t really hot, so it doesn’t matter if he’s secretly a chimpanzee.

    #1713640

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Rebetzin,

    Don’t worry, it wasn’t יד סולדת בו because he didn’t spill it

    #1713684

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Did you stop and ask is it a kli shieini or kli shlishi? Probably had a ladle to pour the soup into the bowl so the bowl becomes a kli shlishi and Reb Moshe holds that a kli shlishi lo mevashel? And even according to those who hold kli shlishi is mevashel is that on everything or only on kalei habishul?

    #1713692

    The soup was bubbling hot and Hatzola treated the waiter for 4th degree burns (there is no pain with fourth-degree burns because damage to the nerves prevents any feeling) – definitely yad soledes according to most machmir shita.

    Besides, Reb Moshe holds that yad soledes is slightly higher than normal body temperature of 99 degrees – not very hot at all! See Igrot Moshe Orach Chaim 4:74 bishul 103 that a temperature of 110 °F (43 °C) must be considered yad soledet bo as a matter of practice, he noted that definitive yad soledet bo might be as high as 160 °F (71 °C), and we go lechumra on either temperature.

    ubiquitin – water used to boil live lobster be kosher – Yes if it remained alive. please provide a source so I can check.

    Would the water be ossur if the lobster dies while it’s claw is being boiled vs water muttar if lobster dies shortly after it was removed from the water after its claw was boiled? (In our case, if waiter dies while his limb is boiled in soup – then soup is ossur, but if waiter dies from severe burns shortly after he is hospitalized, then the soup is muttar?

    #1713678

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    chasam Sofer YD 94

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1839&pgnum=70

    The case of the butter is the end of the teshuva and there the bird died so it doesnt have much bearing on this discussion but in the first paragraph brings from Pri megadim that live things arent maflit/ubolea.

    (Technically he only says bolea)

    #1713749

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Rebbitzen, that is not how burns work.

    #1713751

    iacisrmma – your comment about kli shaini or kli shlishi regarding bishul has no relevance yo ta’aruvos issur v’hetter. If a piece of non-kosher food fell into your hot soup, even if the soup was a “keli asiri”, the soup becomes ossur. The soup does not need to “cook” the issur (as per din bishul b’shabbos), it merely needs the transfer of flavor via heat and liquid (per din ta’aruvos and bassar v’chalav).

    #1713759

    ubiquitin – indeed the Chasam Sofer begins with the Pri Megadem that a living thing is not boleah (or polet),…BUT then the Chasam Sofer concludes that a living thing IS polet and boleah – bringing proof both from the chicken that flew into the butter and the proof that his student R’ boruch found in a Rosh from the mouse that fell in a beer barrel ( עבודה זרה דף סח ע”ב) .

    So that actually makes the question stronger: Does the waiter’s finger in the soup make the soup ossur???

    #1713760

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    whats a 4th degree burn? If I may ask

    #1713761

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Reb. I still dont understand your point. Reb Moshe holds that a kli shlishi that is yad soledes is still not mevashel.

    #1713762

    I have a proof that a living thing is polet/boleah – namely, a living animal/person will expell his issor and prohibit something else:

    The knife of shchita, in Chulin 8b the gemara discusses that the knife needs kashering because it absorbed from the aminal during the shchita. Then the gemara questions, wouldn’t the knife anyway be ossur because it absorbed the hot blood which is ever min ha’CHAI (the living animal makes the knife ossur)!

    This is a clear proof that a living animal would make ossur a hot soup by entering it – likewise, the waiter’s finger…

    Maybe I should only eat eggs and cheese.

    #1713795

    iacisrmma – I will explain because you are unfamiliar with this area of Yoreh Deah. You keep bringing up the concept of cooking – bishul (probably from O.Ch. Hilchos Shabbos), which is unnecessary to make something ossur.

    Heat (sometimes plus liquid, but not necessarily) is how flavours are transfered – which makes something ossur.

    Therefore if you have a yad soledes bo coffee with milk in it and a piece of meat falls into the coffee – it becomes ossur, because the heated coffee absorbs the flavour of the meat (even if you remove the meat from the coffee).

    Likewise if you have a bowl of warm yad soldes chicken soup (even keli shilishi, revi’ie, chamishi etc) and a some cheese fell into the chicken soup, it is ossur because the soup absorbs the flavour of the cheese (even if the cheese is immediately removed from the soup),

    The concept of keli rishon, sheini, shlishi is a law in cooking: bishul, to acheive COOKING (like on shabbos, or to make wine mevushal, or to kasher utensils etc.

    To transfer flavours of meat/milk or issur you don’t need to cook the ingredients together, the heat of yad soledes bo (110 degrees) is all ittakes to transfer the flavour.

    Yoreh Deah is an area that rabbonim are more familiar with then balei batim (who know more of Orach CHaim halochos), so best get guidance in these halochos from a rov with semicha yora yora.

    #1713826

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,

    “I order a soup and notice the waiter’s finger slipped into the soup.

    Is the soup still kosher? The soup had in it a human finger (which is ossur to eat, not to mention, aver min a chai)!”

    Did the finger impart noticable taam into the soup? If so, why would you want to eat it?

    #1713827

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Rebetzin
    “The concept of keli rishon, sheini, shlishi is a law in cooking: bishul, to acheive COOKING … To transfer flavours of meat/milk or issur you don’t need to cook the ingredients together”

    Not quite

    see http://hb.borisute.com/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x4307

    Although we are machmir lekatchila, it is wrong to say that kli sheini vs kli rishon isnt relevant to transfer of taam

    Regarding the Chasam sofer, you are right I do recall it explained that it is only when the bird subsequently dies, but a. I’m not sure why that would be and b. From the last line isnt mashma that way ” דגם בחיותו אוסר כנ”ל ”

    I had jotted down mareh mekomos which I will hunt down over shabbos bl”n

    #1713828

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,

    “so are you saying in a case of pikuach nefesh, one is better off eating human meat than a treif chicken?!”

    No, because in that situation, the laws of kashrus become suspended due to the pikuach nefesh, so the desecration of a meis is unnecessary to sustain life and remains forbidden.

    #1713994

    Avram in MD – “laws of kashrus become suspended due to the pikuach nefesh” the laws of kashrus are NOT suspended, rather, you do the “kal” first, to minimize transgressing (just like shabbos pikuach nefesh – you do the least ammount of issurim). So if human flesh is less ossur, that would have priority over more serious forbidden foods.

    #1714102

    Avram in MD, to clarify further, pikuach nefesh creates a situation of “d’chuya” (the prohibitions are pushed aside), not “hutra” (the prohibitions are permitted – as you call it “suspended”).

    Therefore, when someone must eat food which is ossur (e.g. treif or eating on yom kippur or need to eat prohibited kodshim etc) we give first the least prohibited foods first before resorting to more serious prohibitions.

    This is called: מאכילים אותו הקל קל תחילה, (Yuma 83a), and as codified by rambam (Hilchos Macholos haOsuros 14:17, S.A. O.Ch. 718:9).

    It is important and practical that in a case of pikuach nefesh that shabbos needs to be desecrated, one must try to see if it suffices to only do issurim d’rabbon of shabbos, and if still required to do issurim d’oraysa, to minimize the amount of issurim. Therefore, if one has the choice, better to take a taxi or ambulance to hospital than drive the car to the hospital on shabbos – since a taxi or ambulance involves less issurim.

    #1714904

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is an argument in SA O’CH 328,12., but over here we don’t follow the RMA as any hesitation is dangerous.

    #1714907

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, you are weird. People don’t eat human flesh, it is not food, a choice, we are not canabals.

    #1715001

    People eating humans is mentioned in Torah:
    אכלתם בשר בניכם ובשר בנותיכם תאכלו
    In extreme cases it can be necessary.
    Years ago there was a plane crash in Andes, the survivors needed to eat deceased passengers to survive, till they were rescued.

    #1715060

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Your still ridiculous. Halachically, to eat the lighter issur does not mean human flesh. What ypu are referring to is a curse.

    #1715215

    The only reason we don’t eat human flesh is because it is ossur. If Torah permitted us to eat humans there would be nothing wrong with it. Only what Torah calls sheketz is disgusting. We don’t create prohibitions – we comply with them.

    #1715410

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There are certain things that we would not do even without the Torah’s prohibition like eating blood or human flesh which are anyway disgusting. Explains the Binah Leitim that we refrain from eating it like the spilling of drinkable water because the Torah forbade eating of blood and we get rewarded for it and not because it is disgusting.

    #1715488

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    rebetzin

    “The only reason we don’t eat human flesh is because it is ossur.”

    Just so that I understand you correctly, you believe there is “nothing wrong” with a goy eating (an already dead) person?

    #1715572

    Jerusalem observer
    Participant

    Probably more important to ask the waiter when was the last time he washed his hands, and most importantly, has he been vaccinated against measles.

    #1716025

    Health
    Participant

    Anyusernameopen? – “whats a 4th degree burn? If I may ask”

    Are you an EMS guy that only knows 3 degrees?!?
    There are 6.
    FYI:
    Fourth degree burns penetrate entirely through the skin and begin to burn the underlying muscle and ligaments; fifth degree burns penetrate the muscle and begin to burn bone; sixth degree burns are the most severe burns which have charred bone.

    #1716170

    ubiquitin – why in Heaven’s name would you think there is anything wrong with a goy eating human flesh?!

    It isn’t one of the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, so it is muttar.

    Let’s make it more appetizing and palatable. Goyim have long drunk human blood (believing it provides certain strength).

    Would you be revolted if a goy drank a small amount (say, a revi’is approx 4 oz) human blood?! (Vampirism).

    Suppose the goy drank his own blood, is there anything terribly wrong with it?

    Why should a goy waste a good piece of meat contributed by a recently deceased fellow goy? (In circumstances that meat and other food is scarce).

    In fact, by consuming the flesh, the deceased goy becomes bonded and lives on in the consumer מאכל נעשה דם ובשר מבשרו.

    But getting back to the original shayla, the waiter’s finger gets “cooked” in the soup, does it halachicly becomes “finger soup” (Human finger soup)?

    #1716261

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “why in Heaven’s name would you think there is anything wrong with a goy eating human flesh?!”

    Becasue some things are obviously wrong. As you acknwoedge (even in your trolling, you cant go full troll) You stuck in a caveat ” (In circumstances that meat and other food is scarce). ” Why did you stick that in?

    Like murder which chazal tell us we (not you) would know was wrong even without a mitzvah..
    Though lets kee pgoing with this,
    A goy being meanes an unmarried woman. Are you ok with that too?

    #1716330

    I put in the caveat of circumstances that are necessary because the רדב”ז in Sh”t s. 548 allows the consumption of human mummies for medicine purposes (non-life threatening need for medicine, so no pikuach nefesh, just neccessary).

    Further, there is proof that human flesh is allowed to be eaten based on the rule: “כל היוצא מן הטמא – טמא; וכל היוצא מן הטהור – טהור”, human milk is permitted for consumption, which means that the human may also be consumed (except the Rabbon disallowed due to kovod ha’mes etc).

    Therefore there is nothing wrong for a goy to eat another goy, and in some cases, even yid can eat a deceased. In fact, in a case of pikuach nefesh when the yid must eat meat to survive and he has a choice of eating a treif chicken or human flesh, he is better off eating the human flesh, since it is far less ossur than a treif chichen where each kzayis is an issur. (KFC chicken or human flesh – human flesh wins hands down).

    #1716458

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Therefore there is nothing wrong for a goy to eat another goy,”

    Got it. thanks. So Jeffery Dahmer was no worse than any other serial murderer.

    On to the next since I’m curious how warped your morall compass is:

    A goy being meanes an unmarried woman.

    #1716656

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzin -“Therefore there is nothing wrong for a goy to eat another goy,”

    WRONG! You’re an Am Haaretz!
    Parshas Noach:
    ג – כָּל־רֶ֨מֶשׂ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר הוּא־חַ֔י לָכֶ֥ם יִֽהְיֶ֖ה לְאָכְלָ֑ה כְּיֶ֣רֶק עֵ֔שֶׂב נָתַ֥תִּי לָכֶ֖ם אֶת־כֹּֽל:
    The Torah Mattered Remesh, Not Humans. Adom was Not allowed to eat animals. Noah was allowed.
    I’m pretty sure רֶ֨מֶשׂ֙ is defined – anything that crawls. Humans walk, they don’t crawl!

    #1716671

    What do you mean “A goy being meanes an unmarried woman”?
    (BTW – a warped moral compass that isn’t broken, still functions properly. Do you think that the Torah “missed” some moral guidelines and prohibitions that we (laymen – not Rabbonon) need to add?! Does Torah need “improvements”?)

    #1716673

    Health – “Humans walk, they don’t crawl!”, Let’s engage in your logic: Does a chicken or cow “crawl”?! Last time I checked, it looked like they walk. Besides, does a baby walk or crawl?!

    #1716727

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzen -“Let’s engage in your logic:”

    At least I have logic. Do you?

    “Does a chicken or cow “crawl”?! Last time I checked, it looked like they walk. Besides, does a baby walk or crawl?!”

    Anything similar to crawling things. Animals are similar, eg. birds, chickens, cows, etc.
    Baby humans are Not similar.

    #1716739

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzin -“רדב”ז in Sh”t s. 548 allows the consumption of human mummies for medicine purposes (non-life threatening need for medicine, so no pikuach nefesh, just neccessary).”

    What’s the question, acc. to you? It was Never Ossur!

    #1716745

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “What do you mean “A goy being meanes an unmarried woman”?’

    I mean to force her to have relations with him. As best I can tell it doesn’t violate any of the sheva mitzvos, I guess you say that is ok. correct? (technically it doesnt violate a strict issur for a JEw either though you have more cop outs like Vehavta lereacha, or lo sasuru So I won’t ask you about a Jew being מאנס another one, plus i’m afraid to hear your answer)

    “Do you think that the Torah “missed” some moral guidelines and prohibitions that we (laymen – not Rabbonon) need to add?! ”

    I’m not sure what you mean. Have you never heard of lifeni meshuras hadin? kedoshim tiyhu?
    Just because something is technically not an issur doesnt automatically make it proper.
    Are you not fammiliar with chazal that say We would no murder is wrong even without it being assur ?
    Would you not know? Did chazal think if murder wasn’t an issur then “the Torah “missed” some moral guidelines and prohibitions “?

    And anyway I asked Daas Torah, they said “Goyim really shouldn’t be eating other goyim its bad middos” So there now do you think cannibalism is immoral?

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