Waiter’s finger was in my my soup!

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  • #1716855

    Health – “What’s the question, acc. to you? It was Never Ossur!”

    (1) I stated that it is muttar for a goy. The Radbaz is mattir it for a JEW in circumstances of need.

    (2) I stated several times that for a Jew, it is ossur midrabbon (or according to some Rishonim e.g. Rambam – it is ossur min haTorah.

    For a GOY – it was never ossur to eat human flesh according to many Rishonim and poskim.

    Think about it for a minute, to chew and swallow a piece of your own dead skin (near fingernail) – is that “disgusting”? Morally repugnant?

    Yet you are consuming part of your own body!

    And would you say it is ossur to chew and swallow the piece of hanging dead skin?!

    (I take back that last question, it DOESN’T MATTER whay you or I say – all that matters is what halacha says).

    #1717223

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbizen -“For a GOY – it was never ossur to eat human flesh according to many Rishonim and poskim.”
    Name them!
    From Aish.com:
    This would apply to a Goy also.
    “Rabbi Moshe Shemuel Glasner (1856-1924) writes in the introduction of his Dor HaRevi’i to Chullin that if one has the option to consume human flesh or non-kosher meat, even though the former is at most prohibited by a positive commandment, while the latter is prohibited by a more stringent negative commandment, it is preferable to consume the animal flesh. This stems from meta-halachic concerns which he discusses there at length. The primary issue is that cannibalism is something which ought to be repulsive to us even sans technicalities, and is to be avoided even at the expense of the prohibition of forbidden meat.”

    #1717067

    ubiquitin – “Have you never heard of lifeni meshuras hadin? kedoshim tiyhu?” Somewhere in the discussion you missed that we are talking about a GOY eating human meat (which many Rishonim and poskim say is muttar). When you ask me, about “lifeni meshuras hadin? kedoshim tiyhu?” – are you asking if GOY must act lifnei meshuras hadin or if a GOY has the mitzva assay of Kedoshim Tihyou?

    “And anyway I asked Daas Torah, they said “Goyim really shouldn’t be eating other goyim its bad middos”…” – is there a daas Torah that says a Goy needs to work on his middos?! Does a Goy need to learn Mesilas Yeshorim?!

    Rambam says thatif a Goy keeps Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach (because Hashem commanded them) he is M’Chassidei Umos HaOlam and has a share in Olam HaBa. There is no mention that the Goy needs also to be a baal midos tovos (e.g. humble, patient, calm etc)!

    What you wrote simply does not conform with real Das Torah.

    #1716688

    Health “WRONG! You’re an Am Haaretz!” I suppose you researched this halacha, because you are learned in it (sarcastic).

    If so, you would know that there is a machlokes Rambam and Ramban and other Rishonim if human meat was muttar to Ben Noach or not, But you already decided that the Rishonim that hold human flesh is muttar min haTorah are “WRONG” and you decided that they too are “Am Haaretzim”!

    Those that prohibit ineed say that only meat that was explicitly permitted was allowed, by default all other meat including human meat is prohibited. But other Rishonim, including Ramban and others argue and say that human flesh is 100% permitted min haTorah.

    Have you decided the halacha in this machlokes haRishonim (based on “your” scholarly proof from a possuk? Do you generally pasken halochos directly from a possuk?!

    #1716743

    Health, I will share with you the Rishonim in this dispute (which you seem totally unaware of – so better learn, instead of childishly calling others “am haaretz”):

    Rambam Laws of Forbidden Foods 2:3:

    Regarding humans, although it states: “And the man became a beast with a soul,” he is not included in the category of hoofed animals. Therefore, he is not included in the prohibition. Accordingly, one who partakes of meat or fat from a man – whether alive or deceased – is not liable for lashes. It is, however, forbidden because of the positive commandment. For the Torah lists the seven species of kosher wild beasts and says: “These are the beasts of which you may partake.” Implied is that any other than they may not be eaten. And a negative commandment that comes as a result of a positive commandment is considered as a positive commandment.

    The Ra’uh (Kesubos 60a) is of the opinion, like the Rambam, that human meat is forbidden to eat by means of a lo sa’asei.

    Ramban on Vayikra 11:3:1

    The teacher Rabbi Moshe [Rambam] says that this is to exclude human flesh… but the matter is not so, because the Sages explicitly permitted biped blood and biped milk, so there is not even a rabbinic commandment to separate from it. And if its meat were forbidden, what comes from something unclean is unclean, and the Sages excluded insect blood and human blood from the prohibition against blood, and they said “the blood of an insect is like its meat” and one is flogged for it on account of its insect-ness and not on account of its blood-ness, and they made it like meat. But what they said—that eating [human flesh] is not covered by the prohibition—is to say that they are not excluding it [from the list of permitted meats] and they are permitting it.

    The Rashba and the Ritvah opine,like the Ramban, that it is permitted to eat human meat.

    #1716731

    Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 79:1): “Human flesh is prohibited by the Torah, but there are some who maintain that human flesh is not prohibited by the Torah.”

    In Keritot 21b it is explicitly stated that human blood is permissible for eating: “Rav Sheshet said, ‘There is no Mitzvah to refrain from eating the blood of those who walk on two legs, not even a mere stringency’.”

    It is prohibited only MiDrabbonons; the Rabbonons permitted sucking blood from one’s finger, but if the blood was separated from the body, e.g. fell on food it is prohibited, lest it be confused with animal blood.

    See more about this issue in Sh”t Rashbesh, section 518.

    These DiRabbonon prohibition)s do NOT apply to goyim.

    #1717282

    ajewfrommonsey
    Participant

    My waiter answered me when I pointed it out to him: “Sorry, but I have an infection in my finger and my doctor told me to soak it in warm water”

    #1717272

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzen -“These DiRabbonon prohibition)s do NOT apply to goyim”

    All the Shittos that you brought is by Jews. The Shitah that I brought above, would apply by Goyim also.
    Do you know the Dinim of Mitzvos by Goyim? I think it was discussed even here in the CR.

    #1717271

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Somewhere in the discussion you missed that ”

    nope I missed no such thing. you said that if something is not strictly assur the it was automatically ok . and that to suggest otherwise was saying “that the Torah “missed” some moral guidelines and prohibitions that we (laymen – not Rabbonon) need to add”

    “eating human meat (which many Rishonim and poskim say is muttar).”
    source please.

    ” is there a daas Torah that says a Goy needs to work on his middos”

    Um yes. I dont have the exact mareh makom off hand, but there is a medrash how in sedom they would all steal less than a shava peruta so that none of them technically “stole” The point of this is how bad they were. I guess you understand that as hey that was a pretty clever work around . (I dont recall the source of hand, and I’m not sure how it fits with the fact that even less than a shiur is assur for a goy ) I also recall how they are praised for cutting off feet to fit in bed very smart tactics.

    “are you asking if GOY must act lifnei meshuras hadin or if a GOY has the mitzva assay of Kedoshim Tihyou?”
    nope didnot ask that.
    I DID ask : “A goy being meanes an unmarried woman. Are you ok with that too?”
    (for the 4th time know) You have this habit of ignoring questions that disprove your silly theory, I noticed that you didn’t answer I’m not sure why you think ignoring them makes them go away

    “What you wrote simply does not conform with real Das Torah.”
    Ah but I spoke to super daas torah which trumps das Torah.

    “The Rashba and the Ritvah opine,like the Ramban, that it is permitted to eat human meat.”

    Yeah um this is pure am haaratzos, since without question it is assur for a Jew to have haanah from a mes. So no they do not hold it is permitted to eat human meat. Though they do hold it isnt included in a specific issur.

    #1718710

    “The Rashba and the Ritvah opine,like the Ramban, that it is permitted to eat human meat.” Yeah um this is pure am haaratzos, since without question it is assur for a Jew to have haanah from a mes. So no they do not hold it is permitted to eat human meat. Though they do hold it isnt included in a specific issur.

    You mix up d’oraysa (which they hold there is no issur min haTorah) with d’rabbonon. You also mix up the d’rabbonon for a Jew with a goy – who has no issur at all.

    You need to sort yourself out and unconfuse yourself before calling names of “am haaretz” to others that know what they are saying. Helpful hint: At the very least look up the seforim that were cited with marei mekomos before forming an opinion and putting down others that actually learned the sugya in depth.

    #1718823

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq,
    What is the punishment for a Jew who is meanes a divorced Jewess?

    #1719935

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzin -“You also mix up the d’rabbonon for a Jew with a goy – who has no issur at all”

    I’m waiting for Ubiq to reply. If he doesn’t, then I will.

    Ubiq -“Yeah um this is pure am haaratzos”

    This is one thing that I’ll agree with him.

    #1719952

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Would you have been more satisfied to find a mouse doing a backstroke in your soup?

    #1719953

    Health – “I’m waiting for Ubiq to reply. If he doesn’t, then I will.”

    And I am waiting for Moshiach. אחכה לו בכל יום.

    “pure am haaratzos”: is there pure and impure am haaratzos? Is am haaratzus just am haaraizus? I know there are several levels of a shoyteh:
    stam a shoyeh,
    a shoteh gomur,
    a shoyteh sh’ain lo shiyur, and
    a koful shmoneh shoyteh
    so there are probably also levels in am haaratzus, but are those in levels of tahara (“pure”/purity)? I asl because I never encountered “pure” am haaratzus, and wish to know if such a cheftza exists or is it fictional like Sasquash (my husband’s chavrusa for night seder), Bigfoot (grabs all the kugel at kiddush), Yeti (the shusher in my shul)?

    #1719992

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzin -“For a GOY – it was never ossur to eat human flesh according to many Rishonim and poskim.”
    “And I am waiting for Moshiach.”

    While I’m waiting – Rebbitzin, did you ever hear of 30 Mitzvos Bnai Noach?

    #1720020

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ““pure am haaratzos”: is there pure and impure am haaratzos?”

    Yes some times it is adulterated with a bit of lomdus, not in this case.

    “because I never encountered “pure” am haaratzus, ”

    Wait no longer:
    “The Rashba and the Ritvah opine,like the Ramban, that it is permitted to eat human meat.”

    That line was pure am haaratzos they do not hold it is permitted to eat human meat.

    “I’m waiting for Ubiq to reply. If he doesn’t, then I will.”
    I’m not sure what i am supposed to reply to.

    Kluger yid addressed a question to me , but It should be addressed to the rebetzin. It is similar to the question I asked 4 times that has yet to be answered
    Here it is for the 5th time ” “A goy being meanes an unmarried woman. Are you ok with that too?””

    as to your silly last comment , youve lost the train of conversation, let me sort you ut a bit
    you said “You mix up d’oraysa (which they hold there is no issur min haTorah) with d’rabbonon. You also mix up the d’rabbonon for a Jew with a goy” No I mixed up no such thing, and no, and no rishon holds eating human meat is “permitted”

    We are not discussing if their is a technical issur and whether it is deoryasa or derababon. The question is if it is “ok” You said that as long as there isnt a technical issur then it was automatically ok.

    THIs is what we are now discussing, this led me to my question here it is again: “A goy being meanes an unmarried woman. Are you ok with that too?”
    while you are at it, you can answer Kluger yid’s question too, specifically is it “ok” “Jew who is meanes a divorced Jewess”?

    #1720106

    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -““I’m waiting for Ubiq to reply. If he doesn’t, then I will.”
    I’m not sure what i am supposed to reply to.”

    YOU DID IT!
    Right here:

    “Wait no longer:
    “The Rashba and the Ritvah opine,like the Ramban, that it is permitted to eat human meat.”
    That line was pure am haaratzos they do not hold it is permitted to eat human meat.”

    If he continues – I have what to answer!
    How about Am haaretz sh’ain lo shiyur?

    #1724579

    Helth – “Rebbitzin, did you ever hear of 30 Mitzvos Bnai Noach?”

    No, I only heard of 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach.

    Please share the 23 I never heard of.

    #1724692

    Health
    Participant

    Rebbitzen -“Please share the 23 I never heard of.”

    I figured you didn’t, because you’re an Am Haaretz! So go ask your RH. He gets paid to teach you Torah, I don’t.

    #1724695

    klugeryid
    Participant

    בחולין צב ע”א: “עולא אמר: אלו שלושים מצוות שקבלו עליהם בני נח, ואין מקיימין אלא שלשה. אחת שאין כותבים כתובה אלא לזכרים) כלומר שלא העיזו למסד זוגיות במסגרת נשואין). ואחת שאין שוקלין בשר המת במקולין. ואחת שמכבדין את התורה.”

    #1725222

    Ha, these aren’t chiyuvim “obligations” that they were commanded, nor is it listed in Rambam or those that count the Sheva (that means “seven”) Mitzvos Bnei Noach. DO you count Jewish minhagim as mitzvos – then there are THOUSANDS of mitzvos, not 613 d’oraysa and 7 d’rabonon. Good joke!

    #1725281

    klugeryid
    Participant

    R. G.
    Watch your fingers
    Your calling a Gemara a joke??
    You can troll all you want
    You can incite all you want.
    But watch yourself before you start to call a gemora a joke.
    Shame on you.

    You want to say that’s not what it means.
    Go ahead. Offer an alternate explanation. However lame. But don’t you dare come on and call a gemora a joke.
    Afra lipumacha !!!

    #1725344

    huju
    Participant

    Would the OP prefer a fly? Would the OP be OK with the soup if it were her husband’s finger?

    #1725343

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The second mitzvah listed there is “. ואחת שאין שוקלין בשר המת במקולין”

    Too bad they didint know the Rebbetzin’s psak that human meat is “ok” to eat

    #1725402

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Actually that specific one would indicate that it is OK to eat. Just they only sold it privately

    #1725417

    Health
    Participant

    Rebitizin -“Ha, these aren’t chiyuvim “obligations” that they were commanded, nor is it listed in Rambam or those that count the Sheva (that means “seven”) Mitzvos Bnei Noach.”

    I’d call you an Apikorus, but in order to get that title – you need to know a lot.
    So you’re just an Am Haaretz.
    So there are Gaonim that explain the 30 Mitzvos.
    It basically comes out that the 30 Mitzvos are D’Orysah, some positive, some negative.
    They classify the 30 as Toldos from the 7.

    #1725404

    Firstly, as stated, the “30 mitzvos” are what the goyim “took upon themselves” and are not from HKBH. They only have 7 mitzvos, and those are compulsory.

    Second, as stated, even these 30 customs that they accepted, they dropped 27 of them, and only keep 3.

    Third, the שאין שוקלין בשר המת במקולי does not mean that they don’t eat human meat, addaraba, as rashi says, they only don’t do so very PUBLICLY, or alternatively Rashi says that they don’t eat aminal that died naturally.

    Please read Rashi (or if you need an Arscroll) to understand a line of Gemara.

    The joke is that YOU claim goyim have 30 mitzvos and not seven, and you try to squeeze that belief into this line of gemarah which you misunderstand and ubiquitin botched it completely. THAT is hilarious!

    #1725439

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Rebbetzin

    “they only don’t do so very PUBLICLY, ”
    Lol
    why not? Is one of the sheva mitzvos not to eat human meat publicly? which one?

    You say “the “30 mitzvos” are what the goyim “took upon themselves” and are not from HKBH.”
    who are they from? Are they being praised for it or is at waste of their time? Is the fact that the ydont sell human meat publicly a good thing, or is it a pointless deprivation of a delicious source of protein? (or as you described it “ok”)

    #1725440

    Health
    Participant

    Rebitizin -“Firstly, as stated, the “30 mitzvos” are what the goyim “took upon themselves” and are not from HKBH. They only have 7 mitzvos, and those are compulsory.
    Second, as stated, even these 30 customs that they accepted, they dropped 27 of them, and only keep 3.
    Third, the שאין שוקלין בשר המת במקולי does not mean that they don’t eat human meat, addaraba, as rashi says, they only don’t do so very PUBLICLY, or alternatively Rashi says that they don’t eat aminal that died naturally.
    The joke is that YOU claim goyim have 30 mitzvos and not seven, and you try to squeeze that belief into this line of gemarah which you misunderstand and ubiquitin botched it completely. THAT is hilarious!”

    Your Am Haaretzos is showing again. Do you know how to read a Gemorrah? Use your Artscroll.
    That Gemorrah is quoting Oolah’s Shita.
    I just posted that the Gaonim say it’s a D’Orysah.

    #1725441

    Health
    Participant

    KY -“Actually that specific one would indicate that it is OK to eat. Just they only sold it privately.”

    That’s what Oolah holds.
    But the Gaonim hold it’s Osser.

    Rabbi Menachem Azaria de Fano says clearly it’s part of the 30 Mitzvos (Bossor B’Mais).

    Rabbi Shmuel ben Hofni, Gaon.
    “Not to eat an animal that died naturally or without proper slaughter
    From Genesis 9:3
    “Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat…””
    That would include Human corpses.

    #1725458

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Health.
    I was not taking a position. I never researched the issues I have no clue. I was just firstly finding the gemorah for what I thought was just an unknowledgeable person.

    Let’s I was taking public umbrage at the temerity of the fool to publicly call a line in a gemora a joke. Feh !!!
    Let him peddle his dung elsewhere

    #1725489

    Opinions about Ulah 30 mitzvos that goyim accepted upon themselves, vary.
    Kol Hidushei Maharitz Chayess I, end Ch. 10 says it has NOTHING to do with Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach.
    Others say it is sub-catagories.
    The 30 of Ulah are a bit of mystery since gemarah only lists 3 that they actually keep, the other 27 is a mystery.

    The REMA Mi’Panu in Sefer Asara Ma’amoros מאמר חקור דין ־ חלק ג פרק כא lists them in several categories.

    To claim: “That would include Human corpses.” requires a source! Can’t just make it up!

    R’ Saadya Gaon added to the list, as did Ran and Ramo.

    #1725486

    A goy that violates one of the sheva mitzvos bnei noach is chayav misa. If eating human flesh is ossur for a goy, a goy that chews a piece of dead skin from the corner of his nail or from his chapped lips is chayaov missa. Wow! That is lomdos shelo nitna l’moshe m’sinai.

    #1725584

    Health
    Participant

    Rebitizin -“The REMA Mi’Panu in Sefer Asara Ma’amoros מאמר חקור דין ־ חלק ג פרק כא lists them in several categories.
    To claim: “That would include Human corpses.” requires a source! Can’t just make it up!”

    Arguing with you is getting Boring!
    The REMA mi’PANU רמ״ע מפאנו) says it Befairush.
    He includes Bossor Bmais under the category of Aiver Min Hachai.

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