Waiting on line in a grocery?

I think it’s terribly rude. Do your shopping and wait in line like everyone else. Is the person doing the actual shopping any more important than the others waiting in line? You don’t have time to wait in line? Then come back and do your shopping later.

Areis, and if the person holding the line doesnt announce to those behind her she will soon be getting a wagon full of groceriesp, you would agree it is wrong?

I am very against this! it’s not fair, plain & simple.. saving a place in line is so not right!! grrr

Cedarhurst, Yes, if you don’t tell the people behind you that you are holding the space for your mom who is coming with a load of groceries it is wrong. IF you do tell then it is the same as standing there with the loaded wagon, and the other person can choose whether to wait behind you or go on another line. Obviously if your mom does not come back when it is your turn, people behind you will go first but you will have to continue to say that you are holding the space for your own wagon full of groceries.

In that way you are not being gezeilus daas. You are not fooling or cheating anyone.

the fact that anyone can be rude doesnt make it rite.

Interesting that no one realizes this is actually a halacha question and depending on the situation the halacha differs…

visit http://www.businesshalacha.com/chaburos/interferance-ani-mihapech-bicharara

Rav Nochum Sauer is the Rosh Chabura for the LA weekly chabura and he recently covered this sugya.

and here’s is a brief synopsis though not guranteed for accuracy

Standing on line:

Does a sick person at end of line have a right to go to the front?

What if the person at end of line has only 1 small quick item to buy, does he have to wait for all the other customers with much bigger loads?

What if the person at end of line will miss tefilah btzibur, or he’ll miss his carpool, can he move to the front?

First come, first serve: What is the halachic basis of this and what are the exceptions?

Sanhedrin 32: tzedek tzedek sometimes din, sometimes pshara compromise.

If two boats can’t pass at the same time or two camels can’t pass a narrow area at the same time then which boat or camel can go first?

If one is loaded with a lot of merchandise, and it needs to get to port to sell it, or there will be a hefsed, it has the right to go first. That is the tzedek, right and fair.

Or if one is closer to its city the one with the longer distance to go should go first.

If they are both equal, both loaded, both same distance, then make a pshara one lets the other go, but the other has to compensate the one that has to wait.

Meiri (Sanhedrin 32) defines the parameters. It depends on whats just and whats equitable. Whoever has less hardship is pushed aside, and so too a healthy person is pushed aside for a person who is sick. So too, for a bais din, there is an order yasom, almana, talmid chacham before am ha-aretz, and woman before a man to minimize the embarrassment.

There is a concept of zechus Ha-tor. If all else is equal, then makdimim ha-kodem first come first serve also based on tzedek tzedek tirdof. In a doctors office, if a person is very sick, he should come first, even when its not really pikuach nefesh.

Similarly, at the airport, we should let someone at back of the line go first so that they dont miss their plane.

What is the issur of cutting in front of someone in line? —

Possibly tzedek tzedek tirdof like Meiri.

Rav Elyashiev (hizaharu bmamon chavreichem) its avak gezel (shades of gezel). Possibly he means gezel zman.

Others say its like ani hamehapech you are taking away a certain opportunity that the first person has (he had the opportunity to finish his task sooner).

This is not something thats aino matzui like hefker or metzia, so even acc to R Tam ani hamehapech would apply.

Pischei Choshen (Rav Bloy?) ch 9 : cutting in line is not an issur of ani hamehapech you are not being kone an object. You are only causing a loss of zman, — there is no cheftza. He thinks the issur is based on minhag hamedina.

Mishpetei Torah (r Shpitz) (siman 84): it could be an issur of lo sonu ish es achiv. You are causing anguish to someone else. Also, there is potential chilul Hashem and machlokes.

R Zalman Nechemia Goldberg (quoted in Halachos of other peoples money R Bodner, Feldheim publishers) its a gezel from the owner of the store. The owner does not want people to cut in line which will cause chaos and customers will not come back so not following the rules of the baal bayis is like trespassing which is an issur gezel.

Cutting to the front of line:

You have to ask reshus of everyone on line, not just the first person.

Steipler on the bus:

He was standing at the back of the line, and he said he would only go to the front if everyone agreed, and he said he would be a gazlan if he went to the front without reshus. A bus might be more chamur than other cases since there are a limited number of seats it might be close to gezel. (He did not want to rely on his being a talmid chacham).

If someone is standing in line, can you hand a few items to him to buy for you rather than you having to wait in the long line yourself?

What if you give him the items before he gets in line?

Mishpetei Torah: you are not allowed to give the person in line extra things to buy for you. He was standing in line for himself. The tzedek and the yosher is that he buys only his own stuff. Before he gets on the line then its ok to give him a few extra things to buy. He could have bought more stuff for himself, so he can add things for someone else.

R Shpitz says that even if you are giving the stuff to him before he gets on line there is a limit you cant give him more that what a person would normally reasonably buy for himself.

If you are in line, and you forgot something, you dont lose your space, unless you are leaving for a long time.

If you are leaving for a long time, you lose your spot in the line.

Why do we have lines at all? Why not just whoever pushes hardest goes first?

Probably we think it makes sense for everyone to go in the order they arrive at the line, and for everyone to wait equally.

So I am against it.

(That said, I wanted to sell parking spots last week, what do you think of that?)

“Thegoq – Why is it stealing from the people behind you? They saw the carrige there?”

It is stealing because u are assuming your time is more valuable than theirs, you are not special everyone has a busy life and things they need to do. Do your shopping then get into line once your in the line don’t leave to get anything else if you have trouble remembering what you need to buy write a shopping list.

What I don’t get is how anyone can even think it’s OK?

If you make a grand announcement to everyone it may not be outright STEALING but it is still not “yashar”. So all the people who come shopping alone should leave paper or plastic “placeholders” instead? This is like having a ‘sign in for your place on line, as you walk into the store’ system, which groceries don’t have for a reason. Your place on line is reserved when you’re ready to check out, not before. Everyone else waited for that point, you should too!

Goq – this is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than running out of line for one item you forgot! You were done and ready. You’re standing and waiting and idling. You remember something. Why should you have to waste this time idling when you can be correcting your mistake? And why should you move 10 places back when all you forgot is one item?? Its very obvious when someone is standing on line, then turns around and tells the one(s) after him that he forgot something and is running back, that he didn’t do this on purpose to “get ahead”. We all forget, and there’s nothing wrong with using your waiting time constructively by fixing a mistake you made.

Avram, you should not have a cart in line and be out shopping at the same time it doesnt matter if u need 1 item or 20, making out a shopping list and following it is not so hard , i do my shopping and when i feel i am done i go to the checkout there is no reason for leaving the line to get that item.

You are correct in thinking u can get that one item and be back b4 its your turn to checkout but by doing so u are saying to your fellow shopper i know i should have done my shopping b4 getting in line but the rules do not apply to me, this very attitude is a big contributor to anti-semitism

PBA: and the posters ought to realize it is a halacha shayla having to do with gezel, ani hamihapech, etc.

but by doing so u are saying to your fellow shopper i know i should have done my shopping b4 getting in line but the rules do not apply to me, this very attitude is a big contributor to anti-semitism

Even if I verbally surrender my place in line to the next person should I not return before it’s my turn?

In situations like these, I always think back to the rule of V’ahavta L’Reiacha K’mocha.

How would I feel if I found out that my wait in line was just lengthened by fifteen minutes because someone came with two full shopping carts of stuff while I was waiting on line?

The answer is that I would not like it at all. It’s one thing to hold the line while you send someone to retrieve one or two items you forgot — the added checkout time is minimal — but in a situation where it will add “real” time to the wait, I can tell you that I would not like it at all.

And if I would not like it done to me, I don’t do it to others. End of story — regardless of whether it’s technically permitted or not.

The Wolf

I wouldn’t do it but I don’t think it’s all that terrible.

Real, i feel it will disturb the people behind you they will wonder why should i have bothered to gather all that i need and then get in line if others can get in line and then duck out to continue shopping, if something you do will cause animosity than you shouldn’t do it

TheGoq,

I understand what you are saying. If everything else were equal, then certainly don’t do something that could annoy someone else. There comes a point, however, when one should not make a decision based on whether another person may get annoyed, especially when, in our fast-paced culture, people get annoyed too easily. I know this example is not equivalent to the grocery store case, but if I am waiting in my car to turn at an intersection, I will not go if I don’t have a clear line of sight, no matter how much the person behind me honks their horn and perhaps thinks “Jews can’t drive!”

I would definitely agree with you that leaving the line should not be done if it would cause the next person to wait longer, but should I make my wife and kids waiting for me in the car wait longer just to avoid the possibility that the person behind me in line has no compassion or thinks I did it on purpose? Is there no room left in our society to have mercy on others?

This is all said with a given that the person leaving the line verbally told the next person in line to go ahead if he didn’t return in time, and would go to the end of the line if that happened.

if its a long enough line i could duck out and get a cup of coffee and return in 15 minutes without inconveniencing anyone but should i do so?

Yes, you should. Why wouldn’t you?

I just got back from the post office and was in a long line

(shocking!) about ten minutes after i got in line the frum woman in front of me asked if she could go and put another quarter in the meter (maybe when she walked in the post office and saw the humungous line she should of thought to go back to the meter to put it in then).

So she asked my permission and i gave it but she did not ask anyone else, isn’t it possible the people behind me would be annoyed at me for letting her do so?

But no i myself was not annoyed

TheGoq: She was on line already, and he walking off for a minute to the meter does not give up her place.

most people who are not self involved would see the large line and decide to put in the extra coin before they joined