Walking behind a woman

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  • #602455
    chaimboruch
    Member

    What is your take on walking behind a woman?

    the halacha in Even Hazer Siman 21, says that it is assur.

    I’m often confronted with a option, either walk right out in front of the lady, (and look rude) or try to be nice and let them go first- but then hope that they realize you are only being a mentch…

    The same with holding a door open?

    Is it right? what do the ladies expect? did they ever here of the halacha? do they care?

    #860267
    postal
    Member

    My rebbi taught us we aren’t allowed to walk behind, or between, women or girls.

    #860268
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Mistama they rely on the Ritva which the Aruch Hashulchan brings l’halacha in 21:9.

    #860269
    SaysMe
    Member

    i can only answer for myself. Yes i know the halacha. I have asked my Rav a shaila on this too. What i do is to generally let men walk ahead of me, especially through doors. You can hold the door open behind you after you pass through. I have heard of girls dropping shidduchim when boys walked behind them, or waited for them to get in to close a car door. And i have heard of girls who dropped shidduchim because they found it rude and insulting when the boys did not. Many or most of those did not know the halacha. Personally, i wouldn’t think too hard :). If a boy knew the halacha, i’d prefer he went ahead. If he waited for me, i’d assume he didn’t know it, or didn’t know what to do, like you.

    #860270
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Go in front and hold open the door that way

    #860271
    HaQer
    Member

    Derech eretz kadma laTorah — the one who makes a living walks in front of the one who learns Torah…

    #860272
    Logician
    Participant

    Agree with CA. You can do it in a way where its clear you are being respectful/caring etc.

    #860273
    Sam2
    Participant

    The Tzitz Eliezer has a T’shuva where he outlines when and why it might be okay if that’s what is considered Derech Eretz (the precise T’shuvah is about letting a woman onto a bus before you).

    #860274
    ha ha ha ha
    Member

    you don’t have to walk directly behind a women walk to the side and behind i understand that that is fine.

    #860275
    gabie
    Member

    What if the sidewalk is narrow? Who said that is fine?

    #860277
    BTGuy
    Participant

    I usually try to move away or ahead depending on how much room there is to do so.

    #860279
    postal
    Member

    You aren’t allowed to have an ongoing rear view of them walking, according to the S”A.

    #860280
    DFL
    Member

    “What is your take on walking behind a woman?

    the halacha in Even Hazer Siman 21, says that it is assur.”

    there’s your answer. why does anyone’s ‘take’ make a difference?

    #860281
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    It makes a difference because at least two halachic sources have been cited as possible reasons that it might be okay. To continue arguing based on the Mechaber without looking up those sources just demonstrates that people aren’t seeking the truth, and are simply arguing for the sake of arguing. But that’s what we do here, I guess.

    #860282
    cinderella
    Member

    I posted this on another thread a while back. Different topic but it applies here too

    “I have heard that some people prefer not to for tznius reasons. We see this in the Torah when Yaakov would travel with his family, his wives would travel in the back and when Eisav would travel, his wives would go before him. So, how could it be that Eisav respects his wives more than Yaakov?

    A medrash brings down that Yaakov Avinu was doing it out of respect for his wives. It’s not tznius for a man to walk behind a woman and watch her walk.”

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/to-open-or-not-to-open-the-door-on-a-date

    #860283
    hershi
    Member

    yitay: Even those sources only discuss doing it in limited particular circumstances, not anytime across the board.

    #860284
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hershi – If what the Aruch Hashulchan writes can be applied to the general state of society regarding this situation, then it should apply across the board.

    #860285
    hershi
    Member

    You can’t take what the Aruch Hashulchan said in limited circumstances and decide that society completely falls into that.

    #860286
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hershi – why not?

    #860287
    hershi
    Member

    Who are you (respectfully) to make the determination that all of society falls into that? Especially as a change from the Aruch Hashulchan, who obviously determined all of society does not fall into that, as evidenced by his qualification.

    #860288
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    hershi – The burden of proof is not upon me. You are the one being ???? ??? on a large portion of Klal Yisroel; I am doing the right thing and speculating what grounds they might have for doing as they do. If you want to be ????? ???, you had better be pretty darn sure that there is no way that Ritva applies here.

    #860289
    hershi
    Member

    In the ’50’s and ’60’s in the U.S., there was a widespread disregard – due to ignorance – of the laws of Shatnez and mixed swimming. What sort of speculation would you engage in to find grounds for them doing as they did?

    #860290
    Avi K
    Participant

    The Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach agree (they discussed this issue in correspondence) that the expression “paga ba bashuk” implies that this was a rare occurance in Chazal’s time. They thus learn that today one may be lenient if necessary. IMHO, in most large and mid-sized cities today one is anoos to do so, at least in business districts.

    #860291
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I wasn’t around. If I had been, I probably would have engaged in some, until it were proven that they had no halachic basis for what they had been doing.

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