December 22, 2008 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #588954Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Received via email:
Dear Fellow Yidden,
Alot has been spoken about over the years about the “shidduch crisis.” What are people doing to help older boys and girls of marriageable age? Do you know how painful it is for parents to see their children just get older….the phone rings less and less….all to no avail?
I would like to bring a different aspect to “light”….(it’s that time of year) and get some reaction.
I have tried many times to “red shidduchim” to older singles. Too many times, I don’t get a call back from the prospects, or worse….at times I am made to feel like they are doing me a favor by listening to my suggestion. Whatever happened to the simple mentschlichkeit of responding to the shadchan “thank you so much for thinking of me, but it’s not for me?” If you ignore the person who thought of you and tried to set you up, don’t you think that by not getting back to the shadchan, it’s a sure way of the shadchan losing interest in you?
Now of course you will tell me “when I tell the shadchan that “it’s not for me” they try to convince me that it is! It’s better just not to call them back! I have two comments;
1) Maybe the shadchan does have some insight into why he thinks it is for you, and it is worth discussing. (Maybe you heard wrong information about the other side.)
2) If you really did your homework and feel that it is definitely not for you, hear the shadchan out and tell him “thank you for keeping me in mind, but it is not for me.”
Too many times, I have said to myself “I’ve got enough of my own problems, I don’t need to add so and so to my list!” I know it’s not the right attitude, but hey……it’s really hard to partner with G-D….and after all is said and done….. Kosheh Zivugin K’Krias Yam Suf – I don’t know how to swim…..so if my idea was a bad one, I don’t want to drown!
May everyone find their basherte and A Freilichen Chanukah to all!!
A Concerned (wannabe) ShadchanDecember 22, 2008 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #628744
Dear Mr. Wannabe shadchan,
I’m not sure who your redding shidduchim to but everyone I know returns all their calls and always make sure to thank each and every shadchan myself included.
But to all the other shadchanim out there, heads up.
When you tell a girl/boy’s parent that you have the PERFECT shidduch for them and send over the resume asap….what happens after! Where is the follow up???
Do you all know how excited you make people by saying oh yea i know so and so…
So many girls tell me how frustrating it is when shadchanim act like they can solve all your problems, but then they never call back, or even acknowledge, that they recieved the resume. NOTHING!
Then girls think there is c’vs something wrong with them when the shadchanim prbly just forget that they ever promised anything.
So please all shadchanim out there, it’s not our fault, there’s a major shidduch crisis going on, don’t make it any harder for all the girls that are struggling.
Thank you!December 23, 2008 4:12 am at 4:12 am #628745
These are a few of the things that I think are wrong with the present system of redding shidduchim:
2) Some shadchanim are completely clueless and are redding shidduchim based on THEIR opinion of what the boy or girl OUGHT to be looking for, and do become offended when a girl says it is not for her. That is because it unconsciously might be viewed as insulting to the shadchan that her brilliant suggestion is not being taken. I experienced this recently regarding my daughters, and the shadchan actually said my girls are stupid if they let a particular issue stop them from going out with the boy that was suggested. The issue was that the “boy” is at least 8 years older than my daughter who is in her early mid 20s. She is not comfortable with the idea of going out with someone that much older at this point in her life. Whether or not she is correct, she politely thanked the person who made the suggestiion, but said she is not interested. That should have been the end of it. But the shadchan told me my daughter is stupid, and will be sitting and waiting a long time (G-d forbid). There is no need for that type of comment. And it is onaas devarim, to boot.
2) Some shadchanim believe that just because this is a boy and this is a girl – it’s a shidduch. What happened to having things in common?
3) Some shadchanim do propose a match that sounds promising, and then fail to follow through, in SPITE of the girl calling back. And what is this nonsense that the shidduch must be redd to the BOY first? Redd it to whomever you know, boy or girl, and let BOTH decide if they want to meet.
4) Don’t keep interfering, if you are the shadchan. If the boy and girl are old enough to be dating and getting married, they are old enough to arrange their own dates, once the proposed match has been accepted. I am totally turned off by the idea that boys are having the shadchan make their dates for them, at least for several dates.
I have many other gripes, but this is enough to stir up the pot for now. I am sure I will be hearing from well-intentioned people who strongly disagree with me.December 23, 2008 4:24 am at 4:24 am #628746think613Member
Maybe try going for the younger singles instead. Marry them off before they get so jaded and you won’t have to worry about them when they’re older.
Seriously, I’m a not-yet-older single and I can’t find a shadchan willing to talk to me. They’re all specialists, won’t talk to you unless you’re over 25, BT, or somesuch.December 23, 2008 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #628747
“3) Some shadchanim do propose a match that sounds promising, and then fail to follow through, in SPITE of the girl calling back. And what is this nonsense that the shidduch must be redd to the BOY first? Redd it to whomever you know, boy or girl, and let BOTH decide if they want to meet.”
And think613 I totally understand you! I’m pretty new to shidduchim and already I can’t stand the whole businessDecember 23, 2008 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #628748sarah_613Member
From this 30-something single….
It could be how you approach it. As oomis says, some shadchanim push an idea, even if you keep saying it’s not for you. I have been redt to someone over 30 years my senior! When I thanked the person for thinking of me but said that I was looking for someone a little closer to my age, I was told that I need to stop being so picky. The shadchan told me to think about it and call back. I didn’t call back on that occasion. (I thought that the fact that he was older than my father was not being picky.)
Another time, it was someone who I knew (the brother of a high school friend). I know of some serious issues he has (I saw him punch his mother in the face when I was visiting his sister!). The shadchan would not take no for an answer. He then called my mother and complained that I was turning down “a gem.” My mother had no idea of the conversation we’d just had (and of the details of my friend’s brother–she knows my friend and thinks she’s a wonderful person) and called me right away very upset that I had said no. I didn’t want to tell her all the details, but she finally accepted that I knew things about him from spending time at my friend’s house. But the shadchan kept on calling me, so I finally stopped returning the calls.
I thank everyone who thinks of someone, but I especially thank those who have some rationale behind setting me up (rather than “they’re both single, so it’ll be perfect!”). And if I have a good reason for saying thanks but no thanks, please respect that.December 23, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #628749
i’m a lot younger, but you’re so right. i can’t stand when people think they’re gonna fix the world by throwing 2 people who have no shaychus together and then pushing marriage. most people have no idea what they’re doing and they tend to make things worse.
even if one of these haphazard people have a good idea – i would never let them run the show – i’d take it to an experienced shadchan. the chances of a chadchan accidentally messing things up are less.
i think they sit around and say “who could we marry off? we need three shidduchim to get a free ticket to gan eden…”
seriously. thanks, but no thanks.December 23, 2008 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #628750
Let me try to make it seem better than it sounds:
Would you say that a shadchan should only bother calling with a shidduch when it is absolutely certain that it will work (say, that at least 5 dates will come of it)? No way. If shadchanim limited themselves so much, that would cut the dating arena to a tiny fraction of what it is. Obviously, it is worthwhile for a shadchan to have lower standards than that, in order to keep things moving (which leads to a better understanding of what each person wants, and leads to more successful shidduchim). Find out from your “experienced” shadchanim what their success ratio is. Ask them if they think that they could have succeeded without the failures.
I think everyone agrees with what I just wrote above. Now to the issue at hand.
Should a shadchan take no for an answer easily? I think not. If they did, only a tiny fraction of dates would happen. Therefore, they must push and push until they are convinced that it is not worthwhile.
That means that a person who is dating will find himself in a position of frustration many times. Both because many suggestions are not worth looking pursuing and because the shadchan doesn’t want to accept a “no” easily. Frustration is necessary in order for the process to work. I’m sorry (and so is the shadchan) that it seems like you are being harrassed, having your time wasted, and not being taken at your word. But if you agree with what I wrote you will see why it must be this way.
My advice is, if you want to minimize your frustration – give a shadchan (or more than one) a chance to get to know you. After explaining why when you say A you mean A, you begin to develop a relationship with the shadchan (hopefully it will be short-lived!) and the shadchan will learn to understand you and trust you. To someone who trusts you, “no” does mean no.December 23, 2008 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #628751
“Should a shadchan take no for an answer easily? I think not. If they did, only a tiny fraction of dates would happen. Therefore, they must push and push until they are convinced that it is not worthwhile.”
Problem is, they are not convinced, the only way the shadchan will stop bothering someone is when they are so frustrated that they will finally announce to the poor single, oh your too picky good luck finding someone…
Imagine in Sara_613’s case, I don’t think anyone here would recommend that she go out with the guy that she saw punch his mother, yet the shadchan didn’t give up.
Just because a single is saying no to your suggestion, don’t take it personally, maybe there is a serious reason behind it they don’t want to share.December 23, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #628752
I agree. The shadchan who says “Oh, you’re too picky” because the single insists that the answer is no is flat out wrong.December 23, 2008 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #628753
by the way – that’s when you know what the shadchan’s real motives are. if they get mad when you say “no” – chances are they don’t really care. they just want to be able to cross another person off their list. and i noticed that there are a lot of shadchan-wannabes out there now. they really get upset and start guilt-tripping – even when you give them a million and one legitimate reasons why the guy’s not for you.
and once i see that side to a person – i assume they’re not for real and i stay FAR away!December 23, 2008 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #628754
“they just want to be able to cross another person off their list.”
Yea that plus don’t forget the shadchanus they’ll lose out on if you say noDecember 23, 2008 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #628755
And what about the shadchan who set my daughter up with a boy who owns a dog (forget about the halachic issue of whether or not you agree it is ok to own a dog). My daughter clearly and emphatically said she does not want to go out with any guy who wants to have a dog or cat in the house, or who has one in his parents’ home, because she is terrified of dogs. That shadchan set her up with three different guys who have dogs. Clearly someone is not paying attention. it is not something she will “get over.” At least, there is no guarantee of that, and you don’t try to put two people together with the hope that one or the other will drastically change an important aspect of his or her life.December 24, 2008 7:13 am at 7:13 am #628756skatesMember
I think its for all of these reason, that people appreciate more suggestions made by friends and family as opposed to shadchanim! Friends know each other and want the best for their friends and won’t push them into s/thing they don’t want because “statistically” their age renders them undate-able or too picky!!
So friends…family…get up and you earnestly start suggesting and redting shidduchim cuz you know them best!!!December 24, 2008 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #628757sarah_613Member
No, they don’t need to be sure it will work, but some of these ideas are just so out there. For example the guy that I saw hit his mother, and the one who is more than 30 years older than I am. If I was being unreasonable or if there was a reason why I should reconsider my “no” answer, that’s fine. But when I get this type of call, I can tell that there’s no reason why she’s setting up him with me other than the fact that we are both single. It tells me that no thought at all was put into this. Many shadchanim will tell you to just go on one date. But there is such an emotional (and often financial) investment that goes into this. And the more time you end up going out only one time, the more frustrating and difficult it all becomes. If there’s no chance that it will go anywhere (such as with the two cases I mentioned, but there have been others as well), what is the purpose?December 24, 2008 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #628758
You should realize that the shadchan who insist you go out with someone 30 years older than you is wasting your time. Ignore his/her calls going forward. But don’t extrapolate this evaluation to other shadchanim.December 24, 2008 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #628759
“(and often financial) investment that goes into this”
For starters hair=$60
Just for one date!December 24, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #628760
Girl you’re going to the wrong places if that’s what you’re paying! I go to a place that charges 16 bucks for wash & blow (they do an awesome job) And mani- under 7 bucks (and it lasts more than a few days)
That will save you a nice amount right there…December 24, 2008 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #628761
who in their right mind pays 60 bucks for their hair and 15 for nails???? you guys really must move to brooklyn – real estate may be higher, but you save on everything else!December 24, 2008 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #628762
beacon could you give me the name of the place that does it for $16 please??!!
oh yea n the nails I like french for a first date…
brooklyn honey I live in brooklynDecember 24, 2008 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #628763
myshadow – you are way too vain. but you could get a french manicure for $9 if you insist on French.December 24, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #628764
Sure. (I hope YW let’s me give the info out though)
2353 86th St.
718-266-5918December 24, 2008 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #628765
Brooklyn, not everyone wants the cheapest of things, you want to enjoy, last night I paid over 40 for a pedicure, and over twenty for manicure. not saying everyone has to pay that price because there r cheaper places but its good to enjoy and relaxDecember 24, 2008 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #628766
thanx bklyn! lol I’m still pretty new 2 shidduchim I think when I get more into it I’m prbly gona skip the mani all together!
Beacon, is that the chinese place?December 24, 2008 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #628767
my shadow, its absolutely ridicolous to pay so much for both your hair and nails. esp in brook. in regard to your hair, personally i am very particular with who actually cuts my hair so for that i stay away from chinese but for blows chinese do a gr8 job. the place beacon mentioned i’ve used many times and theyre gr8 but if you dont want to travel far there is also a gr8 place on the corner of Avenue U and East 14th. For cheaper cuts, try Chez Madeline on Kings Highway and East 9th, directly across from Fox’s. monday and tuesdays are special days – $15 for cut and $15 for blow. and for mani – Gorgeous on M!! $6.25 a mani! but tell them not to use quick dry (as long as you have the few extra min to real dry) because quick dry discolors polish and makes it pop and crack! b’hatzlacha and happy dating!December 24, 2008 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #628768
yeah hopefully the hair thing won’t be an issue anymore :} anyway, i actually learned how to do hair by watching a professional, so i get away with spending for that! and nails… well i don’t do it for dates, i do it for myself. so i don’t count it like “i spent money for the date.” anyway, don’t be cheap – the guy spends a lot more!December 25, 2008 12:48 am at 12:48 am #628769
myshadow- yes their chinese. I tell them not to do it so straight so it comes out full and very pretty.
keepinentertained- I use Gorgeous Nails too..December 25, 2008 6:02 am at 6:02 am #628770
If I am not traveling to the city I do go to gorgeous as well, it is funny if we are all there the same time and may not know. Hair place on U and fourteenth is good as is $12… maybe we shud cordinate our days the same night so we can get ready together and head to the same lounge?!?December 25, 2008 7:33 am at 7:33 am #628771
[email protected], theres no where or way to relax 4 cheaper? but glad u enjoyed…i suppose you can attribute your splurge as s/t l’kovod chanuka…
my shadow, new to shidduchim too but still its important to know you always must look good…NOT only on dates, so a mani should be a reg thing and your hair should always be done, be it by professionals or you yourself
beacon, as does many flatbushers! maybe well meet there 🙂 but i got a steady weekly appt so i come and go!December 25, 2008 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #628772
KeepingEntertained, yea I have the same thing with the hair, I tried a million places and I was only happy with elanit, and yea I usually do have my nails done, actually now I used the quick dry so they got all ruined, but I’m gona go today or tom to redo, and I also use gorgeous- if that’s the place everyone is talking about on I and McDonald?
How funny is this we should all meet.
Some guys are prbly reading this thread feeling totally lost 😉
Brooklyn, how does the guy spend more?? All they do is buy me a diet coke lolDecember 25, 2008 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #628773
Ok people I’m going tomorrow to the one on Ave M… Anyone want to meet me I’ll be the one with the dark hair 😉December 25, 2008 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #628774
myshadow, gorgeous is on I and McDonald but KeppingEntertained and I are talking about the one on M and 15th, I like them much better if you have a choice. and the boy does buy drinks which could be 15 dollars, um then parking?!? its about 35-60 dollars depending on place and time, and that is just for a first date, after first date well depending if you go back to a lounge again but the prices usually go up.December 25, 2008 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #628775rebetzinParticipant
I’m a girl (women) and I’m totally lost. I guess I’m naive but I didn’t know that people have their hair and nails done before every date. And these are same people who want to live a kollel life? And then someone else posts that that’s not enough, but manicures should done regularly? There’s something wrong if this is what yeshiva guys expect.December 25, 2008 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #628776
“People”= the girls I was talking to. (myshadow, keepin, etc)
(Mod can you post it now?)December 25, 2008 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #628777
Ok scratch that last post…The CR must be busy today…December 25, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #628778
rebetzin, you are right, but at the same time the mothers of the kollel boys are looking for a gorgeous, skinny, put together, smart and e/t girl, the girl has to try and be that to make the mother of the boy happy to get a date or go further than that. once they are married their lifestyle can change. I am talking from personal experience. My mother makes me get my hair and nails done, doesnt mean I want it, so I am listening to my mother, making my potential to be mother in law happy, when I am married a’h living a kollel lifestyle these things wont continue, not only because we will be living on a smaller budjet ( well in that case I can go from $20 manicures to 6.25) but rather because I really dont need these things or want them, just following what my mother wants me to do. thats itDecember 25, 2008 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #628779
I understand what you’re saying, but I’m a working girl and I don’t see the harm in spending a few dollars in order to look good. Also who says everyone is going to live a kollel lifestyle?December 25, 2008 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #628780
bored – don’t kid yourself. you’re not doing it for your mother. if you really were against it you wouldn’t go through the trouble.
reb- they’re both right. sickening as it is, a single girl is always on display when in public. not that that requires a manicure, but if i’m single and i work hard, why can’t i treat myself? it’s definitely not a necessity and yes, i would give it up in a second if my husband didn’t like it or i had to really budget.December 25, 2008 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #628781
Forgive me for my presumptuousness, but it really bothers me that so many mothers and potential mothers-in-law seem more worried about the girls’ nails than about their learning to live within their means. When they marry their Kollel boys, I would hope that getting nails done would be a low-priority expense. It is not at all expensive to buy a bottle of nail polish and do it yourself.
This just sounds very shallow to me. What about their middos?December 25, 2008 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #628782
oomis1105 – unfortunate reality: most people don’t worry about that till after sheva brachos…
lol seriously, it’s a problem. especially w=the way people hype up averything. everyone’s GORGEOUS and BRILLIANT and the BIGGEST baal middos… it’s really tough to see through it. plus society promotes fakers. that’s just how it is.December 25, 2008 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #628783
Thanx bored I’m gona go there tomorrow then!
Rebetzin, I agree with beacon, I’m not looking for kollel unfortunately
Oomis ur definately a guy right? No girl that I know has time before a date to sit down and do her nails herselfDecember 26, 2008 12:08 am at 12:08 am #628784
yea, im tlaking about the gorgeous on M and 15th! Angelica and Juanita are my ladies!quiet funny to think how we may all see each other many times yet never know who each other is!! lol! and myshadow, who’s elanit? and stay away from quick dry!! unless your in a major rush at the time but have no problem going for another mani shortly after! i do go every friday but i still like my nails to last longer than thru the wknd!December 26, 2008 12:41 am at 12:41 am #628785
We need a shadchan on here! Too many single girls lol.December 26, 2008 12:49 am at 12:49 am #628786
lol beacon thats a good idea…December 26, 2008 12:57 am at 12:57 am #628787JosephParticipant
rebetzin: “I’m a girl (women) and I’m totally lost. I guess I’m naive but I didn’t know that people have their hair and nails done before every date. And these are same people who want to live a kollel life? And then someone else posts that that’s not enough, but manicures should done regularly? There’s something wrong if this is what yeshiva guys expect.”
[email protected]: “rebetzin, you are right, but at the same time the mothers of the kollel boys are looking for a gorgeous, skinny, put together, smart and e/t girl, the girl has to try and be that to make the mother of the boy happy to get a date or go further than that.”
rebetzin, you are absolutely 100% correct.
bored, these vain boys and vain girls will end up with each other, and they are only fooling themselves; no one else is being deluded who these fakers are.December 26, 2008 1:10 am at 1:10 am #628788CuriousMember
This thread is hilarious. Welcome to the Brooklyn Single Girl’s Club!December 26, 2008 1:26 am at 1:26 am #628789dunnoMember
this is really funny! i’m probably also going to gorgeous tom (the one on M)December 26, 2008 1:37 am at 1:37 am #628790
ugh i’m quitting this thread. don’t count me in – i don’t need any shadchans down my throat… :}December 26, 2008 1:47 am at 1:47 am #628791asdfghjklParticipant
seems like me & joseph are the only guys who even looked at this thread!!! i’m still in shock that a girl would pay $60 to have her hair done!!! i think i’m going to have a stroke from that one!!!December 26, 2008 5:21 am at 5:21 am #628792
Joseph, its not the vain singles, its the parents! I in no way need my nails done and want a husband who would not mind if they are not. he is doing it for his parents and I am doing it for mine.
asdfghjkl, do you not live in brooklyn? $60 is not crazy to pay?!
dunno, prob c u there…
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