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A group is offering $50,000 to jewish families that move to their community, in Dothan, AL as reported here:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gi5_YCwR_wkv2gEbEJM3QgN-cs1QD932NC6O1
Its a reformed temple, but if enough of us go, we can start a little shtieble, and hey for $50,000 might be worth it! The average price for a home in that community is a bit over 100,000
How long do you think fifty grand will last you? Not long at all…..
Better to give Kosher tzedaka than to receive non-kosher(or any).
Would you give tzedaka to an uncertain organization? Then why accept it.
Speaking of giving kosher tzedaka check out Olam Hatorah http://www.torahindex.com to assure that your tzedaka doesn’t go to waste.
Can someone please get their rabbi to say its a mitzva to take their money so as to bankrupt them? That will get a good discussion going.
Joseph – “Take money from a Church? Even a Reform Church that calls itself Jewish.”
So basically if they are not orthodox they are worthless? they may not be as observant as you are, but to discount their Judaism completely is a disgrace.
And let’s say an actual Christian church offered you money, what is wrong with taking it? It is not illegal what they are doing and the rabbanim of yesteryear don’t even agree unanimously that Christianity is even idolatry.
justsomeguy:
Reform is koifer toras moshe misinai. They claim that the Torah was written by human beings ch”v. We are forbidden to enter into their temples the same we we are forbidden to enter into a church.
As for your question about taking money from a church, there are various sources that discuss this. However, based on your post I assume that you wouldn’t be interested in hearing the correct answer anyway. Maybe you can organize a “debate” with a Rov on the subject.
justsomeguy: “but to discount their Judaism completely is a disgrace.”
There is nothing to discount. The Reform/Conservative DO NOT PRACTICE Judaism.
justsomeguy,
!?!?!?
Reform is not religious! They CHANGED the Torah, so what does that make them???
You can add Modern Orthodoxy to the list. I will get a huge attack on this. But I can take the heat.
Intelligent,
Religious or not, they are still Jewish. You can have nine of the frummest guys on an airplane, but one reform guy still makes the minyan. Just because you “can take the heat” does not mean that you are right in your beliefs.
Let’s not forget that one of the conditions for getting the money (as per the article) is remaining involved with the Temple for five years. Since none of us are prepared to do that, I suppose the point is moot.
And, of course, no one here is suggesting that it’s permitted to take their money under false pretenses.
The Wolf
“You can have nine of the frummest guys on an airplane, but one reform guy still makes the minyan”
how about a reform girl? certainly they hold she can make the minyan.
how about a reform gay girl? nothing wrong.
how about a reform gay unmarried pregnant girl? shes Jewish, right?
maybe a reform gay unmarried pregnant rabbi who loves eating her ham sandwich in her favorite restaurant on Shabbos with her Torah study group. can she make the minyan?
yes they are Jews. we always have had Jewish reshoyim among us.
they are not stupid, they are not ignorant, they are reshoyim.
Re Feivel and ignorance, rishus, etc:
Some years ago I read an article in I think Jewish Action about a BT who was a reform rabbi, who while he was in the “rabbinate” had never heard about carrying on Shabbos.
I think the term you might want is tinok shenishba.
tzippi
no i dont think so
not every rasha is a tinok shenishba
what you describe is rare
they know
Let’s remember that plenty of us BT’s came from the reform movement. If we didn’t have a bit of an introduction to Judaism in a watered down version when I grew up reform, then I would have had nothing Jewish and could have intermarried, etc.; instead today I am a FBT who married a FBT. Atleast the reform movement can give one a spark that can be ignited by Kiruv as it did for me and plenty of others. Those with nothing don’t have any connections. So, stop beating up the reform movement, they’re still fellow yidden. Set an example and perhaps you can mikariv a reform yid as someone did for me many years ago. Stop trashing people who are less in observance than you are and probably don’t know any better. It would be more productive, if you just educated them and yourself instead. This initial post should have never made it here.
As far as I know, most people involved in the reform movement can probably be referred to as Tinok Shenishba and maybe it is good that at least they have an awareness of Judaism, but the whole idea of reform is Kfira. Years ago (and probably many reform rabbis today) were very knowledgeable about Yiddishkeit but felt they could change Yiddishkeit and Torah due to their Taavos.
a shotah (????) is absolved from keeping mitzvos and hence from receiving any punishment, admonishment or even criticism. This halachic catgory has just admitted Intellegent as a new member.
feivel, Tzippi is correct. those in reform and conservative (and the unaffiliated) are in the category of tinok shenishba. It used to be just the followers were, now, after so many generations and re-inventions of Judaism on their part, even the leaders fal into the category of tinok shenishba.
Most people’s involvement in the Reform movement is largely limited to attendance perhaps one or two days a year at lasts only until the last child is either bar or bas mitzvah. Very few if any have any religious ( frum ) background.
mdlevine, The leaders of these koifrim are reshoyim. It used to be the leaders and followers were as such. But now many of the followers were blindly born into it.
Blue Shirt,
Thanks. I assume an insult from you should be taken as a compliment. Thanks.
i dont know
its obviously way too big an issue to be decided by anyone here!
i imagine we can all agree on this.
nevertheless, Rabbi Avigdor Miller, ztl has stated many times that reform are reshoyim, they are not our brothers, they are technical Jews but they are not Jewish, they have no chalik in Olam HaBah, and other similar statements. whether he was referring perhaps only to the leaders or only to the followers, i never heard him make a distinction.
i suppose other great leaders of the Jewish People might have a different understanding, or might express a different understanding publicly not to offend or cause a widening rift. Rabbi Miller, ztl, was a man who always spoke the plain Emes, he was a knoi for the Ribbono Shel Olam. I never doubt, chas v Sholam, anything he said or wrote.
re Feivel: If you really have respect for Rabbi Miller, zt”l, now that you opened this can of worms please get an exact quote!
those were exact quotes
“can of worms”?
This is Torah Hakedosha! What Hagaon Rav Miller said is pure kedusha.
tzippi
i dont understand
you seem to be familiar with Rabbi Miller, ztl
but anyone who has heard him speak, even a few times will understand that those quotes are precisely characteristic of Rabbi Miller, ztl.
i dont understand your exclamation mark!
the leaders are just as blind as the follows. they were born into it and know no better. the previous generation of leaders (the developers of this sheker, knew better and they were in the category of those who lead one astray). todays leaders have an absolute zero understanding of Judaism. essentially, they are not smart enough (uneducated) to be called reshoyim.
mdlevine, feivel shared with us Rav Miller ZT’L’s divrei kedusha. Who’s chiddush are you bringing?
I must say that hearing feivel and joseph wax lyrical about Rav Avigdor Miller z’l, I want to have his EXACT QUOTE about reform. I do not believe that he said this about fellow jews. “Yisroel af al pi shechoto, yisroel huh”. I do NOT believe that he said(as quoted):” they are technical jews but they are not Jewish” What the heck does that mean? if reform jew is mekadesh a woman, she won’t need a get??? preposterous!! so, please ,I want to see EXACT QUOTES and then ,we can all judge what is said and decide whether to accept it.
rabbiofberlin, what feivel quoted were exact quotes from Rav Miller ZT’L.
(Reform are reshoyim, they are not our brothers, they are technical Jews but they are not Jewish, they have no chalik in Olam HaBah)
believe what you wish to believe.
ps
ive seen how you belittle people constantly in your posts. i know i cant control you but i would ask nicely and would be most appreciative if you wouldnt treat me sarcastically (ex: “wax lyrical”). i dont post to argue or debate or fight. i post what i believe to be Emes. im not interested in anything but Emes. im not interested in “beating you” or “winning” .
ps
“if reform jew is mekadesh a woman, she won’t need a get??? preposterous!!”
i dont recall Rabbi Miller, ztl saying this, or myself,
maybe you think i implied this?
i certainly didnt, i am not at all qualified to make such a statement, and wouldnt.
although there IS certainly a densely tangled web of Halachic problems when it comes to Kiddushin and Gerushin of the reform
was the Kiddushin valid (were the witnesses valid witnesses, relatives, was the Get from a pevious marriage valid )its very easy to pasul a get), are any of the primary parties or witnesses or previous marriage partners “gerim” not al pi Halachah?
etc
etc etc
this is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
so the answer to your hypothetical question is not so clear.
Joseph
you wrote:
“mdlevine, The leaders of these koifrim are reshoyim. It used to be the leaders and followers were as such. But now many of the followers were blindly born into it.”
The only difference between your opinion and my opinion is that in my opinion the current crop of leaders are the offspring of the previous crop of followers and perhaps offspring of some of the previous leaders. this makes the current leaders as blind as the followers – the classic “blind leading the blind” scenerio.
WOW! rabbiofberlin wants to consider what Rav Avigdor Miller ztv’l said exactly and then will “decide whether to accept it.”
rabbiofberlin, have you yet to “decide whether to accept” the Chofetz Chaim’s words? And if you have made that decision, what was your decision regarding the Chofetz Chaim? Acceptable or not?
mdlevine, I understand. But is your point your own chiddush or you are repeating something a Torah giant said? Thanks
Re Feivel. You wrote, I never heard him make a distinction. I misread that and thought you were saying you weren’t clear if he ever made a distinction.
Rabbi Miller, zt”l was definitely a knai, and I wouldn’t try that myself without clearly being on his madrega. Yet I’m still sure that he made some distinctions between the tinokos shenishbu followers and the leaders.
tzippi
reading over my post i see i didnt express it clearly
just to clarify for sure, i have no idea if he holds differently regarding leaders or followers. i never heard him make a distinction. maybe he makes a distinction, maybe he doesnt.
i would guess that he holds the leaders in worse regard than the followers, but this is just pure supposition based on what i know of Rabbi Miller,ztl
To add some fuel to the fire, I heard that Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZT”L was once asked by someone during one of his weekly shiurim why the Galus is extended. Rabbi Miller ZT”L answered, because we got rid of the reform, we got rid of the conservative, and now we are getting rid of the Modern Orthodox.
Can anyone verify/dispute this?
well, to answer some of the questions….
To will Hill, you misquoted me. i did NOT say that I will decide whether to accept R’ Avigdor Miller’s words…I said that “we can decide”. This is rather logical,don’t you think? Must we accept every word from every Rov as “halocho lemoshe misinai”? Just because R’Avigdor Miller said it, does it make it right or the law of the land?
And your question about the Chofetz Chaim is irrelevant. First, because plenty of Poskim don’t always pasken like him (would they also be put into the same group of kofrim?)and secondly, this is not a halacha question but a polemical debate. As I said ad nauseum in another posting, I do not believe that, “in milei de’alma’ I am obliged to follow every Godol’s words. You can call me an apikorus and whatever else you want, but I will stick to my beliefs.
All that said, can we have some written sources for all these declarations from R’Avigdor Miller? Abything along the line “he once said” cannot be accepted at face value.
To Joseph, there is a mishna in chelek that you undoubtedly know, about who has a chelek l’olam habo or not. I think I will rely on that mishna before I rely on your words.
to feivel, If you think that I “belittle’ you (or other people) ,I ask you (and others) mechillah. By writing “wax lyrical’, I was not belittling you, just using a pretty common phrase.On another posting some time ago, I undertook to try to be civil to everyone and ,usually, it works (Others seem to ignore this…)
Concerning the mian point. I sadi that it is pretty clear that, juts because someone is reform does NOT make him a non-Jew or a “technical” Jew, but he remains a full jew. If he does anything like marrying a jewish woman, she will need a get. This is incontrovertible. The other problesm you write about have more to do with the process (Kiddsushin,witnesses) that with the fact that he/she is jewish.
I maintained that I do not believe that R”avigdor Miller said anything like this and certainly not lehalocho. I think that the “posters” who espouse this view are guilty of being merachek Jews who should be “mekurov”. This is what Elijahu Hanovi does and what we should try to emulate.
Lastly, intellegent, I havd heard worse things said about the modern orthodox and just because R”Avigdor Miller z’l said it or did not say it, I don’t think that the modern orthodox crowd are quaking in thier boots. The Golus is long for the gemoro’s reason : sinas chinom. Take note, posters!
rabbi of berlin – you need some help. It is clear from all your posts that you vehemently oppose everything that is mainstream. That is not so uncommon, but you also believe that everything you believe is right, and that it is the mainstream which is mistaken EVERY TIME. And you misquote/make up references to “prove” your points. Everything that a Godol said can and will be disputed by you. With or without base.
You need to get off this forum and take your questions to a Rov (or a number of them). No one here is buying your haskofos and no one here is convincing you how wrong yours are. Even when your repeatedly asserted claim was refuted, you hardly conceded. If you can’t deal with a Rov face to face then try some site where the moderator is a Rov (such as frumteens.com for example). Do it and you’ll be happier about yiddishkeit.
About the Reform, I never heard anything about treating them badly as people. Are we taught to mistreat even Goyim? Of course not. But their Temples are like churches, and it is Assur to enter them or to benefit from their facilities. Kula alma modim.
As far as dealing with them goes, I was taught not to. Austritt!!!!!! But that is not a universal Hashkofo (though maybe today it is). Of course they are Jews, but they are also dangerous people. Who cares if they know authentic Judaism or not? They are kofrim and there is no reason for interaction. (Those thinking of kiruv should realize that I am ignoring that *possible* aspect of the discussion because I have no expertise there. If you are an established, successful kiruv individual then you already have someone to turn to for this question. The rest of us can ignore kiruv.)
squeak….the common thing for someone who has no answer on a logical argument is to dismiss the questioner as not relevant..you did it pretty well…
What you think is “mainstream’ is only “,mainstream’ in your own narrow circles.There exists other frum circles ,you know….you may want ot ignore them but you cannot make them vanish..
I am not asking anyone to buy my views and the easiset thing to do for people with no argument is to try to silence the other voices. Sorry, but, as long as the moderator allows my comments, I will try to give an alternative view…
Incidentally, you may not have noticed but I usually buttress my arguments with REAL WRITTEN SOURCES, something you (and others) have not done.
I don’t know if I am right anytime or everytime but neither do you. I have said clearly that only history will prove who is right or wrong, whether on Eretz Yisroel and Zionism, whether on modern orthodoxy or other, whether on baalei teshuva and others, whether on shlomo’s music or others,etc..
To date, most of history and reality is on my side. Whether on Eretz Yiroel and ZIonsim, whether on Shlomo’s music or not,whether on baalei teshuva or ignoring them, and other matters are still in the balance.
And whenever did I dispute every godol’s word ? I have questioned SOME words of SOME gedolim. I have said, ad nauseum, that on “milei de-alma”, I will not check my intelligence at the door when asking for advice.You are welcome to do this.
And you said (in your second posting) “as far as reform, I never heard anything about treating them badly”. HUH? Have you actually READ all the previous postings(including from a baal teshuvah, former Reform Jew)? To say that someone is NOT jewish is just a synecure? In my book, this is the wors thing that can happen. THAT IS treating someone BADLY !
Lastly, you seem to be of Yekkeshi origins- as you know the word Austritt- .I respect R”shmason Rafael Hirsch tremendously (we’ll leave aside his encouragement of limudei chol for now) but there were other voices in Germany too, not least Rav Hidesheimer z’l who did not agree with R”S’R” Hirsch on that.
Lastly, in your last paragraph, unfortunately, you show your true colors and for that, I am sad. You dismiss ninety percent of the Jewish people, calling them “dangerous people, “kofrim”, “no reason for interaction” and, worst, “the rest of us can ignore kiruv”.
THank Hakodesh Boruch HUH that you and your ilk will not bring ther geulah but that Elijohuh Hanovi will bring the geulah shleimah. He, of course, if a “kiruv individual par excellence”.
last line should read : IS a “kiruv individual par excellence”
One German word doth not a Yekke make.
If I may add, I am well aware of the other opinions, such as those of R’ Bamberger (Hamburg). What I added was that at this time, where the pull of reform is not as great, it is possible that even he would not advocate closeness. Reform has become a psuedo-Judaism, not a viable alternative to mainstream Judaism. It is more like an alternative to Xianity (self censor).
There’s that word again – mainstream. I don’t need to convince you that I am certainly not mainstream (by the standards of this board at least), but that is the mainstream that I was referring to. I am quite aware of “alternative” mainstreams (haha, what an oxymoron), but I do not feel it is necessary to SHOVE IT IN THE FACES of those who quite obviously belong to a group THAT DOES NOT CONSIDER THOSE OPINIONS VALID.
Why do you feel the need to validate yourself amongst this group? That is why I intimated that you have frumkeit issues. I believe that you want to be convinced that the mainstream is correct (not about everything, of course. I’m sure you don’t want to be convinced about Zionism or Carlebach music, etc. I’m referring to the individual issues you pick on endlessly, that have to do with liberal style acceptance rather than acceptance of gedolim’s words even when it advocates intolerance). You should keep trying to find someone who can convince you – I think it is GREAT! But this board cannot help you. I’m glad that the moderator approves your comments, but you should not be – you will only get more frustrated.
Please don’t lump me together with those who argue with you. I have never debated your views on this site. All my posts in reference to you were in attempt to dismiss your attacks on people who don’t need to hear them.
And since I’m responding anyway, I will correct your misunderstanding of my statement. What I said was that I never heard that we SHOULD mistreat Reform Jews. I did not mean that there were not people here who were doing so. Certainly, calling them non Jews is denigrating them.
I just read a part of your post that I missed earlier. 90% of Jews are reform? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Reform is DEAD!!! How many reform temples are left? How many believers? C’mon.
Most non frum Jews are simply non observant. They are areligious (to coin a phrase), not atheists ch”v. Nowadays you can be irreligious without thinking about it. You don’t have to actually decide to deny God Ch”V. You just do what you want. And when you’re in a foxhole, you can “pray” to birds. These Jews are who we need to be mekarev.
I will stand by what I said. I do not believe that we should interact with practicing Reform Jews. And I stand by what I said for Kiruv. Unless you are experienced and successful, you should not venture into those waters. And if you are experienced and successful, you don’t need me to tell you what to do. There are plenty of “safe” Jews for the rest of us to use our Kiruv energies on.
By the way I’m wondering why you didn’t say “jekke”.
squeak… thanks for your civil answer (I mean that)
I said “yekkeshi” rather than yekke because my mother-language is yiddish ( If, by any fluke, I will ever meet joseph or others, they would be mightily surprised at me, my levush, my background)
I did not say that 90 percent are reform. The context of my words was about dismissing a large part of Jews, regardless who they are. (Like no kiruv or calling all reform jews, non-jews). I am pretty sure that about 85% (eighty-five)of yidden in the world today are not shomrei shabbos. I suscribe to the view of “veheishiv lev ovos al bonim” and it is incumbent upon us to pave the way for Elijahu hanovi…and if those yidden were born and grew up reform, does that exempt us from trying to bring them back? Personally, I think not.
As far as the first posting. Look at this from the opposite view. Do you think that previous Gedolim refrained from telling the truth even when they were in the minority or overwhelmed by numbers? Absolutely not. Throughout the centuries (from the Neviim onwards),many individuals continued to work for their view of Torah,often in very solitary ways. I happen to believe in ceertain aspects of yiddishkeit and I am just one proponent of them. I do not “shove it in anyone’s face” (have you read the other side’s postings sometimes?) and, just because some people on this website don’t agree with it, there are many others who do. Just resd the many responses!I don’t shrink from telling my side of the story and I would be guilty of cowardice if I let my voice on these issues be silenced.
Laslty, please spare my the appellation of “liberal style acceptance”. What is liberal about espousing Rav Kook’s view on Eretz YisroeL? What is liberal about espousing Lubavitch’s view on kiruv? They may not be universally accepted in some circles but they sure are not liberal…
1. I was referring to your sudden change to spelling with a Y instead of a J. Now I have 2 examples, Yekkeshi and Yidden. Not really important, though, just wondering.
2. I do not have any reason to think of you as being similar to “gedolim in the minority” or “neviim with an unpopular message”. Sir, I think of you as quite the opposite. You seem to want to spread the popular message of “anything goes” on the fine people of this forum for whom only the Torah goes. That’s what I meant by “shoving it in their faces”. There are plenty of places where your views are popular, take them there. Don’t give me the persecuted minority speech.
3. I only said that we should refrain from interacting with the rabid reform, not with the stam Jew who is not shomer shabbos. Those Jews are who we SHOULD try to be mekarev (each person to the best of their abilities in this area).
4. What I meant by liberal style acceptance is your views of “anything goes”, by example I mean all of the kulos that you try to defend. I do not include your zionist views in this matter. That is a true view, though not a widely accepted one anymore.
I’d be glad to have any reasonable discussion with you. I always try to be reasonable (except when I am trying to be funny). But if you are posting here for the reasons that I mentioned, I am not one who can help you achieve your goals. Please think about that.
Is anyone here from the Jekkishe Jidden?
squeak, thank you for your reply. It was civil, in large part.
I’ll address para. 4) first. Can you ACTUALLY quote ANYTHING from my postings that says”anything goes”? Exactly which kulos do I defend that are not correct? And why exactly is it wrong to look for kulos? As I said earlier, Bais Hillel today would have to pack up their bags and leave the field to Bais Shammai.
On Zionism ,I’ll leave histor ydecide.
On par 3), I am pleased that you agree to allow kiruv to play out today. I am not sure what you mean by “rabid reform” The vast amjority of reform jews are the quintessentila “tinok shenishba”.
On par 2) your “old ” persona has resurfaced. Why do you inply (nay-actually say it) that the views I present ,and others on this webiste like Pashute Yid, are NOT Torah?
Apart from the saying of “shivim ponim latorah” , I, and the others,actually QUOTE WRITTEN sources to buttress these opinions. If they are not popular in this forum, so be it. I have read many of pashute Yid’s postings and others. They are always measured, supported by actual sources and ,as far as I can read, is not at all”shove in your face”. I try to do the same. If I go over the line, I will be happy to change or retract a statement. To try to muzzle my postings and others shows sings of weakness. If you truly feel that you have the better of the argument, debate it properly.
Lastly, what does “persecuted minority speech” even mean?
I just read a part of your post that I missed earlier. 90% of Jews are reform? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Reform is DEAD!!! How many reform temples are left? How many believers? C’mon.
Actually a fair number, I expect there are a lot more reform temples than orthodox shuls in the US, they just mostly tend to be in different areas (out in the suburbs etc). I know a number of people in the reform movement who are quite active and are not just 2 day a year Jews.
I have no comment on reform practices*, but if you are going to make assertions at least be factually correct.
* If nothing else my mother taught me that if you can’t say something nice it is better to keep your mouth shut.
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