December 28, 2011 12:59 am at 12:59 am #601341
WHere’s BTguy? He can help vouch with me on this one.
I find it amusing to watch goyim interact with us on our terms and our turf. Having been raised by goyim, and gone through the public schooling system I have basically been brought up amongst them, so I can understand full well what annoys them (about us) because of our cultural differences. So, Want to hear?
A yid calls a grocery store and asks if they have a certain product. The goy who answers says no. The yid asks “Why”? Its a perfectly harmless and reasonable question. Maybe they ran out, or maybe its on back order -but he is entitled to ask why. THE GOYIM HATE The question why. Do you know why? Because then there is going to be answers. And if we arrive at answers we may end up arriving at truth. And when we arrive at the truth – then we are accountable for misdeeds and whatnot. And they don’t like that…
I am not saying he would be threatened by a grocery store item but they are so programmed to hate the question “why”. Never ask a goy why. I am serious. Try it. They just hate it. In this particular situation I described above, the goy was so angry he hung up and was ranting “He asks me ‘why'”..(how dare he).
Recently I hate the misfortune of asking “why” to a bank clerk when she disappeared to the manager with my husbands’ regular paycheck. She almost bit my head off!
Next, if they “feel” they did anything for you, you have to honor them lavishly, with words and gifts. Whether or not it really is warranted, but rather its based on their perspective of how they feel about the situation. For example, Your neighbor does something insignificant. so, you need to smile and nod (curtsying would be too much here) but you have to say Thank you and have a nice day, “very nice of you”… for whatever thing they did.
Next, always move aside and act like you’re in their way and just darting and weaving through the public spaces in order to get out of their way. They own the sidewalk. Not us. Especially because we have baby carriages to push, so that means we are really in their way.
They just hate how we push and bump into one another.(well we are family aren’t we? its natural)
Next, don’t expect that they admire our uniform of dress code. They are extremely jealous. Those who would dress as us in our vochen clothes are already ready for a wedding on their terms.
Never ever ask them personal questions, because when they do it to each other its from the mean side of intentions and they don’t arrive at a rachmanisdigge perspective. They chepin.
Like if you tried to have empathy to someone and said “wow must be hard” then they would look at you like “oh really….just tell me how you should know…” (as if you are making a sly comment)
Its good if someone would write a book on how to have their language of etiquette. It might help us learn how to interact better.December 28, 2011 2:11 am at 2:11 am #841938
Write the book!December 28, 2011 4:03 am at 4:03 am #841939OneOfManyParticipant
I think I’m gonna try that first one. Hee hee hee.December 28, 2011 4:24 am at 4:24 am #841940WIYMember
If you dont mind Ill take this with a grain or 2 of salt.December 28, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #841941cleverjewishpunMember
Sounds like some gross generalizations.
But yet when a goy does it, they get smeared with the anti semite label.
But I guess nothing trumps the “Eisav Soneh Et’s Yakov” card so therefore everything you have written must be true.
FoolDecember 28, 2011 4:34 am at 4:34 am #841942
Hey!December 28, 2011 4:37 am at 4:37 am #841943zeena.kastaMember
This is extreme. But no regular person likes to explain themselves. Yiddishkeit provides for rituals which have meanings, we can explain ourselves with in the parameters of religion, goiim cant and that frustrates someone when they are asked and they dont know why themselves.December 28, 2011 4:53 am at 4:53 am #841944RABBAIMParticipant
Yisroel and amim is kodesh and chol, night and day. we say the blessing every week.December 28, 2011 5:03 am at 5:03 am #841945
cleverjewish I definately am not putting “anti semetic” on any one here. That is a topic of its own, which has nothing to do with this point I raised.
If you have low self esteem or some social disorder I am not responsible for, don’t put others down with criticims or labeling me fool.December 28, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #841946
Hi always runs with scissors fast.
I am right here! lol
You are very astute and very correct.
I have never realized it before but you immediately touched upon some things which are very evident.
I dont know why these things happen, but perhaps their politeness to us is short fused and expires after a few minutes, and it is like they are programmed for that. lol
In fact, their avoidance of a rapport with us once it gets into the “why” phase is clearly seen, and even dangerous in certain circles like the local traffic courts. In fact, it does not work at all with law enforcement and some of the finest people in the community have been abused by officers merely seeking a humble explanation or wanting to share more information.
I have witnessed things in traffic court (a friend of mine had to go) and on the streets where very decent frum yidden just want an explanation or a chance to make a contribution to the conversation and explain what invariably turns out to be a very intelligent and meaningful point. And they are met with hostility and even threats to cease making their point. And this is done by our own municipal public servants.
I have found that the non-Jewish world, except for a few types like radicals/rebels or lawyers, for some reason, do not go to the “why” of something.
As a people, sometimes we are too smart for our own good within the golus we live in.
Always, I have even found that people with our experiences sometimes inadvertently threaten our own people who cannot accept that we have a certain worldly awareness and insights they dont have. I want to be clear that this does not mean one is better. Each of our lives are different, the same, and preciously valuable. The non-Jewish world has it’s own “thing” too, and my experience in that world is an important part to the hashkofa of what I am doing in coming closer to Hashem now.
Still, we should never dummy down. We cant! lol
Keep on “whying”.
Also, few people realize that it is very amazing what you are doing. To come close to Hashem with more things to do then we can realize, not because you are told to do so, or your whole family (family of origin) is doing it or preparing and helping to make it easy, or, in fact, may be discouraging you from doing it and not interested in sharing the Jewish things that make you happy, is a very special experience that few know or are able to share with others. You and your family are truly blessed, and that blesses the rest of us! Thank you. : )December 28, 2011 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #841947
wow BTguy I almost felt a tear coming up in my left eye, and I for sure felt goosebumps reading what you wrote. THANKS! I needed that chizuk.
I am glad someone else ‘sees’ what I am talking about, as you so eloquently described in further detail the problem that arises out of a simple question such as why, and how it can appear to them as confrontation.I really smiled at your understanding and words at how you put it.
I guess for us there can never really be enough “why”., as we value coming to greater knowledge. Even if it means everything we thought we knew up until that point of enlightenment will mean that everything we thought we knew will have been WRONG. (hence one needs to have humility)
But I liked another point you raised that “I have even found that people with our experiences sometimes inadvertently threaten our own people who cannot accept that we have a certain worldly awareness and insights they dont have…”
I have always wondered this. WHy when I open up about something I saw or know from “the outside” or sharing of an experience that was interesting, they tighten up. I sense they become uncomfortable. I would think they would be like “whoa…this is interesting that someone has a different background experience and is willing to share it with me”. I was raised in a very liberal open minded home and closed mindedness was not valued.
But besides for that, its even a little socially insulting. What is your experience with this?
But one question I have is how can being FFB be use of one’s bechira, when in a sense they were pre-programmed and tuned into the system. WHereas on the other hand a ger or a bal teshuva has discovered the truth on his own. He is then in a sense like Avram discovering Hashem on his own. I pity them. They have no idea what its like to “wake up”.December 29, 2011 12:26 am at 12:26 am #841948
always – that’s where the nekudas habechira concept kicks inDecember 29, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #841949
I guess I knew that was the correct answer the moment I typed that line.December 29, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #841950
Wow, Always, spot on! I’m an FFB but now that you pointed it out I can attest to every word! I thought they only treat frum Jews like that. It didn’t occur to me that they also treat each other like that. I must add that modern religious Jews treat us with the same coldness and arrogance. I wonder how they treat each other.December 29, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #841951MindOverChatterParticipant
Wow, always. So true! That was an eye opener for me! Thanks a lot.
I must add that modern religious Jews treat us with the same coldness and arrogance
Unfortunately, I can attest to that. I was once out in the grocery. A modern guy stood in the center of the isle (with a shopping cart, kids and all) schmoozing with a friend. When I tried to snake around and get through with my shopping cart, he gave me a dirty look and blurted, “Some people just don’t know how to talk! Couldn’t you ask me to move?!” (I wonder what he would’ve said had I asked him to move).
Either way, we must always try not to be annoying and behave in a polite manner to Yidden and goyim alike.December 29, 2011 4:47 am at 4:47 am #841952
Hey, let’s not generalize.December 29, 2011 5:09 am at 5:09 am #841953
I am going to open a new thread guys. Meet me over in “Middos Horror Stories…”
I have never encountered the worst middos until I became a part of the frim community.(I also have never encountered such righteous people with the best middos as well, until i became religious) It started back when I was modern in a modern orthodox shul and continues up until today where I stand in a ultra orthdox chassidic shtetl.
So the problem is me. Not them. Because I am from “the outside” and was raised not to snorkle my spit or swallow the mucus from my nose. They didn’t get that lesson. I don’t know how this worked its way into chassidic minhagim but even the women next to me in shul shabbos are doing it. It turns my stomache.
I was also taught not to stare. Seems that if you are new, weak, or vulnerable in any sphere they have a right to stare at you especially in grocery stores at the check out. I always wanted to ask them what they are staring at. But I dont know how to do it politely enough.
I was taught its rude to leave your baby carriage right in the center isle or on the inside of a grocery store mamish right at the front entrance so you trip over it going in or out. Its like they are clueless to the fact its in anybodys way. BUt how you could NOT be considerate of where people have to walk? I dont get it.
I was taught you say “Thank you, please may I have, or it was very nice of you to…” But apparently the norm here is you just order people by saying “Oh, and you can make me a coffee too”. Full stop.
I was taught that when you are in a telephone call you give your full attention to the other person and never NEVER EVER pay attention to what your child is saying to you. That you rather hang up politely before EVER telling the person “EXcuse me could you hold, my child needs me”…But here I have also adopted this new weird custom of putting the kids before the friend I am holding on my ear.
I love them. G-d bless them. Its just that I am so darn different.December 29, 2011 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #841954morahmomParticipant
Interesting insight about the “why” situation, but I think the point about our “dress code” is really important. It’s one thing to have our bnos melochim shine in the area of tznius, which is always evident in the summer, but I think Jews should always be mindful of Yaakov’s warning to his sons: Lomo Tisrouh – don’t stand out in terms of gashmiyus. That doesn’t mean we should look shleppy; just tone it down!December 29, 2011 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #841955Feif UnParticipant
MindOverChatter: So you didn’t say excuse me, you just tried to squeeze by, because you assumed he’d say something nasty in reply if you did ask? And you’re calling him the rude one?December 29, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #841956
Hi always runs with scissors.
Your topic is really touching on countless things that can be said that come from a well with no bottom. I dont know where to start, but will try to be brief and keep it to one topic.
I think people like us, and we need to talk about this, will always measure every moment of their day by contrasting where they came from, where they are, and where they are going.
For us, the “why” is huge. Our ability to question and think and wonder, BH, has brought us here, and we have no option but to go further. If we didnt think, we would not be here. No one does what we do because of convenience or ease. We do it because we came to believe and for meaning, in spite of the many obstacles, and then we develop a true love for what we do.
This is my view and is not meant to be pushed on anyone, but in my view, I never second guess what I am doing nor do I second guess my life experiences. They are all valid, meaningful, with many cherished experiences.
I remind myself that among our Avos, Avraham Avinu did not deal solely in a frum community. He expressed love for his son Ishmael, a “non-Jew”. Yitzchok Avinu raised and loved a child, Esav, who was “not Jewish”, and Yitchok Avinu’s own brother, again, Esav, was anyone but someone he would walk to shul with.
Additionally, Moshe Rabbeinu grew up among people who were not like him, and we learned Yosef, too, was not strictly living in a Boro Park or Lakewood.
Rashi had dealings with secular scholars of France regarding French linguistics. Rambam was a physician who did not deal exclusively with Jews on a day to day basis.
I can go on and on. Everything we have done is all valid and meaningfully defining our precious lives.
But I also would like to add that my personal view, and no one has to agree, is that it is better to be FFB. To me, as a teacher, and coming across kids who go OTD and seeing them without kippa, tzit tzis, eating treif, etc., and they talk to me about these things….. To me, when I look at them, the “frumness” is still in them. To me, they are frum kids having a problem.
Having said that, if I were to do the same thing, I would not see myself as a “frum” person who is having a problem. I have to stay on; all the time, and keep growing, with G-ds help, to feel I am expressing my love for Hashem, Torah, and Judaism and being Jewish.
That is my personal feeling and I may be wrong and I dont say that to discourage anyone. There is a lot to be said for what we do in trying to swim into a sea of infinite things to learn, do, and feel, because we believe it is the right thing to do. And, our obstacles are unique.
Have much have I written? I am probably contributing to global warming at this point..lol
Again, what you are doing and what you are doing for your wonderful family, makes you a true tzadeikas. Dont forget that. All of us benefit from how high you have climbed and the amazing good things you are adding to the pot that affect all of us. Hashem sees you and knows.
: DDecember 29, 2011 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #841957tahiniMember
A most evocative post, thank you always runs with scissors fast.
I have often shared the feelings you so beautifully elaborate on yet never have had your eloquence in expressing them.
Kol hakavod.December 29, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #841958
wow. thanks guys. I actually was ashamed after having posted my last write/thoughts. BTguy i think You are my best friend i ever met in the CR! Just knowing some other “head” out there has been there too, and found Hashem, and is saying what you said about :
“This is my view and is not meant to be pushed on anyone, but in my view, I never second guess what I am doing nor do I second guess my life experiences. They are all valid, meaningful, with many cherished experiences.”
I always feel like I am carrying around this strange mole on my back or badge of “dishonor” no body else bears. Nobody else in my community knows what it feels like to live in a Tee Pee in the wild, sit in the sunlight like you are one with Hashem, bathe in rivers, and do Hisbodedus in Forests playing a little native american wooden flute to Hashem. I am just so different!
Its not bad. It was bashert I found Hashem like the Bal Shem Tov, (he use to sit in the forest doing this)minus the tee pee and river part. My parents were hippy, they went to the beach boy and Dead concerts. I thought we were normal.
Anyways, I am sorry I did all that. I wish I could have just found Hashem the normal way. If there ever was one.December 29, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #841959
“A modern guy stood in the center of the isle (with a shopping cart, kids and all) schmoozing with a friend…”
Feif, did you read this before jumping to the defense of the less frum one, as usual? How about HIM excusing himself for blocking the aisle? And what would HE (or you) say if MOC stood in the center of the isle with a shopping cart, kids and all, schmoozing with a friend? Dirty looks, nasty comments… I’ve seen them all from those “Bessere mentchen”. And really, does MOC deserve a tongue-lashing because he tried to squeeze thru without hurting anyone? How about ?????? ??? ???? ?????, ????? ???? ????, ???? ???? etc. etc. etc. – all out the window when the victim is frummer than you? Foul!December 29, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #841960
Hi always runs with scissors.
Wow. I am very proud to be considered you best friend in CR. Thank you! We certainly are kindred spirits and in learning about you, I see that you are a person made of gold. I am very happy you are in the Torah world.
It is very interesting to learn about you. I understand how you came to Torah. You see beauty in the world and connect with it. That is sorta what, in part, the Dead experience did with me, among other things. Also, I am not so sure there is such a sharp dividing line between pre bt days and now. Maybe I am wrong.
I am glad we are the type of people we are and I would not change anything (well, most things..lol)
And you parents are more than normal. To me, hippie/yippie was knowing what was going on and daring to go beyond what the status quo tells you to think and feel. And, for the most part, in that scene people wanted to be good and affirm life without autocratic mechanisms in place telling you what to do. Ironically, the Torah, in all it’s detail and safeguards, commandments, and decrees, just picks us up and makes everything good and wonderful.
The normal way to find Hashem is the way you did. No two people are exactly alike, and all those things you talk about that you did also have Hashems thumbprint on them.
I got your back sista!
: DDecember 29, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #841961
Always, your “BT story” sounds fascinating. Would you be willing to share it with the public anonymously? If so, please ask the mod to make contact between us for the details. Thank you.December 30, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #841962
msseeker:I have never yet “narrarated” the story, so I don’t have it all put together yet, but its going to be a very good one im yirtze Hashem when I get it down. I was thinking of a title for a book , maybe “what a long strange trips its been” but then…yikes. I have cut off from those terms.
BTguy: can I assume we are probablly the only ones in the CR who know what 4:20 means? (better to forget it.. I know)
But really I believe that to be a proper oved Hashem one needs to throw over board the past, and like Yisro never talk about the old practices of magic and whatever it was.December 30, 2011 2:18 am at 2:18 am #841963
always – hey, you’re not the only ones…December 30, 2011 5:04 am at 5:04 am #841964
What? Yitayningwut knows what means 4:20?December 30, 2011 5:11 am at 5:11 am #841965
Hehe… Yeah, just cuz I’m FFB doesn’t mean I don’t know stuff. 😉January 4, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #841966
I quit long before the 4:20 thing became part of the vernacular. lol. But I know what it means and I dont judge on that basis alone. I do believe “partaking” has been totally removed from an intellectual/cultural framework and is indulged in by people I dont want to hang out with because they are more street and dumb than anything else, for the most part.January 4, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #841967computer777Member
Always: what yitayningwut is telling you is that google will tell anyone what anything means. All you have to do is mention it so we know it’s a code that exists.January 4, 2012 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #841968OneOfManyParticipant
lol…I now know what “4:20” means.January 5, 2012 12:31 am at 12:31 am #841969
welcome to the club dudeJanuary 5, 2012 12:32 am at 12:32 am #841970
(i know, you aren’t a dude)January 6, 2012 5:42 am at 5:42 am #841971
Listen, I’ve come a long way. So I feel I can say I have learned a few things. One thing I think, is that Yisro the Ger who has an entire Parsha named after him probablly didn’t cling on to the old “good days” memories of sitting around magic circles with drums and all the pagans before his Torah days.
When I m’kabaled the Torah and all the way of life, I try to not incorporate the unholy past. Yes, it was a stepping stone. It was a level I was once one. A very low rung in the ladder. But B’H I was brought up to a high place.
I will admit that ever since getting the Darn Computer in my home ( and some days I hate it so much I still want to smash it) I have ventured into Youtube and typed the The Byrds, or Joan Baez.
But I know its wrong. And I always hope I’ll wont do it next time.January 6, 2012 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #841972WIYMember
You can get internet filters that block YouTube. I really try to avoid YouTube because it has so much dirt on it.
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