Was I yotzeh daled kosos?

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  • #1714057

    We had a beautiful couple as guests for the seder. They were recently becoming frum, yet felt heimish, and the male guest graciously poured us all wine – derech chayrus. We have a hiddur to use non-mevushal wine for daled kosos.

    After the seder and songs, as they were leaving, the man mentions that he is halachically not Jewish (his mother never properly converted)!

    This man had poured us the non-mevushal wine for all of the daled kosos! The wine was ossur!!

    Were we yotzeh daled kosos, or do we need to drink them all over again? (True ad dlo yada!)

    It’s after the seder, 3 am, no rov is available – what shoul;d we do?

    #1714083

    Joseph
    Participant

    You wake the Rov up.

    #1714096

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Were you allowed to give them wine? why wasn’t it lifnei iver?
    When he touches/pours it it becomes yayin nesech and is assur for him to drink

    #1714183

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You weren’t yotze; you had the seder on the wrong date.

    #1714204

    ubiquitin – “Were you allowed to give them wine? why wasn’t it lifnei iver?” After the seder ended we discovered that the guest which poured the wine during seder was a non-Jew. That means all the wine of daled kosos would normally be forbidden by his pouring. (The goy can drink wine that he poured for himself – but what about all the yidden at the seder?!)

    #1714378

    laskern
    Participant

    I don’t thiink it is assur because inter-marriage doesn’t apply. When drank there was no problem beliving he is jewish and we don’t asser derabonon retroactively, so you were yotzeh.

    #1714354

    marbehshalom
    Participant

    you they werent frum, so why did u use non-mevushal?

    #1714321

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I read the question quickly I thought he wasn’t observant.

    If he was Jewish but not shomer Shabbos, can he drink non- mevushal wine?

    (R’ Bleich had a article on this in tradition a few years back)

    #1714306

    laskern
    Participant

    The issur is because of inter-marriage, wheh you drank it you did not know, so I think it does not apply and we
    don’t asser derabonon retroactively.

    #1714311

    RebYidd23 – it was last year, but “bumped: to now, because the issue is relevant!

    You saw the thread that claims the majority of kiruv events have non-Jews due to intermarraige etc. – which I totally disagree with, but there is a possibility of a goy in the crowd,

    Which requires an awareness of the halochos relating to wine that is not mevushal. (Same applies with such wine with the housekeeper/cleaning lady/waiter etc). Many wines on the market are NOT mevushal.

    A discussion about the dalad kosos makes people aware of the issues.

    #1714318

    funnybone
    Participant

    its 3 am, no Rav is available…
    its yom tov! the CR is closed! why are you asking us?!

    #1714409

    laskern
    Participant

    Listen to the difference. Yayin Nesech pouring wine to the a”z has nothing to do with knowing that he is a non- jew, whereas inter-marriage only applies if he knows before touching it that he is a non-jew. In our case it was only revealed afterwards, so I think the gezera does not apply.

    #1714444

    laskern – “assur because inter-marriage doesn’t apply. When drank there was no problem beliving he is jewish and we don’t asser derabonon retroactively, so you were yotzeh” so, if someone makes kiddudh on non-mevushal wine unintentionally (didn’y know at time of making kiddush) – he is yotzeh kiddush?! (There were no goyim around at all – so no risk of intermarriage, so you are saying it’s ok?!)

    #1714446

    marbehshalom – “they werent frum, so why did u use non-mevushal?” They were baalei teshuva, all frum, but he revealed that he comes from a mother who did not convert k’halacha. (He himself believes he is Jewish).

    #1714448

    Joseph – “You wake the Rov up.” Past experience was that after Daled Kosos, the Rov is ad dlo yada, literally and figuratively = he does hot hold his wine very well. he is machmir to use wine that is “meshaker” – inebriates. uses Chazon Ish shiyur of reviis (like our Kos Shel Eliyohu), and drinks entire cup. He is also mosif al hakosos during shulchon orech.

    #1714452

    ubiquitin – “If he was Jewish but not shomer Shabbos, can he drink non- mevushal wine? (R’ Bleich had a article on this in tradition a few years back)”

    I did not see Rabbi Bleich’s article.

    There are many approaches to permit. Firstly he must be mechal shabbos b’farhesia, which has a high standard (more than the simple meaning). Secondly one who recites Kiddush and explicitly recites the words “And the heavens and the earth were completed etc.” cannot be considered a heretic and does not forbid wine by touching it. Although many Poskim agree to this opinion, some disagree. Halachically speaking, Maran Rabbeinu Ovadia Yosef zt”l writes that one who relies on this opinion has on whom to rely.

    #1714535

    cholentandkugel
    Participant

    you weren’t yotzei-drink each cup four more times just to be 100 percent sure your yotzei this time and make sure that either your husband or sons pour each cup this time

    #1714581

    drink each cup four more times – one cannot be “mosif al hakosos” (between 3rd and 4th cup, and after 4th cup).

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