December 30, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #601403
I see a host of articles about an alleged “spitter” of an 8 year old girl in Beit Shemesh. Yet no one has been arrested or even identified. Who originated this allegation and how do we know that there is any veracity to it? It seems to all having originated from a claim last week on Israeli TV that was taken at face value, without any corraboration. Knowing well the chareidi-hatred permeating the Israeli media, we know from very many past experiences that the media can manafacture lies against chareidim from cloth.December 30, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #840351zahavasdadParticipant
Someone WAS arrested
Id Post his name here, but some might consider it Loshon Harah.
I DONT as true sinners must be exposed and put in CherimDecember 30, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #840352
Zahavasdad – You are talking about a different incident – the arrest on the 49 bus in Ramat Eshkol, based on a female soldiers claim — which witnesses on the bus said he never did. Not the alleged spitting incident in RBS bandied about all over the press – in which no one has been arrested or even identified. Even if there is an arrest you cannot accept at face value that there is a shred of truth to it. And yet here there is nothing at all other than the empty claims of the anti-chareidim.December 30, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #840353
Knowing well the chareidi-hatred permeating the Israeli media, we know from very many past experiences that the media can manafacture lies against chareidim from cloth.
Next up: How do we know there was a girl? “She’s” really a 35 year old man with dwarfism in a disguise paid by the media to make chareidim look bad.
After that: Who says there are really people protesting at the school? It’s really a bunch of actors hired by the chareidi-hating media to make chareidim look bad.
After that: How do we know that there is even a non-chareidi school there? I think that the media set up the whole operation (including bussing in chiloni kids day after day for months, hiring actors to play teachers, parents, etc.) to make chareidim look bad.
The next step: Who says that there are even non-chareidim living in Beit Shemesh at all? The “chareidi-hating media” rented all those houses, brought in a bunch of leftist troublemakers to make it look to the world like there is a thriving non-chareidi community, and set up the conflict years ago by starting to build a school, knowing that the chareidim were going to eventually move into the area.
The next step: How do we know that there are any non-chareidim at all in Israel? Maybe all these chilonim, dati-leumi and others are brought in from neighboring countries just to cause trouble and make the peaceful chareidim of Israel look bad?
The WolfDecember 30, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #840354
That’s it, WolfishMusings, mock the point. After all, if Channel 2 reported it, there must be some element of truth to it, no? I mean even WikiPedia will now accept it as fact, and that certainly makes it factual, doesn’t it?December 30, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #840355byeplutoMember
I’ve seen video of Charedim spitting on women. This isn’t a big conspiracy, you know…December 30, 2011 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #840356
That’s it, WolfishMusings, mock the point.
I’m not mocking. I’m just showing you that if you’re willing to begin engaging in conspiracy theories (i.e. “there is no spitter, this is all manufactured to make chareidim look bad”), then we can carry that all the way.
The WolfDecember 30, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #840357
Where is that video you speak of? In this allegation, none exists.December 30, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #840358
WolfishMusings: Questioning the veracity of Israeli media reports is no conspiracy theory. Especially considering the media’s sordid history.December 30, 2011 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #840359shlumpMember
This thread was already started by a different member! yes and i strongly believe this should stop right here, as in the other thread it lead to big gossip!! it is better for a person to be considered a fool his whole life then to be considered wicked in the eyes of Hashem for even one minute! Hamayven Yaven and good shabbos! im outa here!December 30, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #840360ZosHaTorahParticipant
I’ve been wondering the same thing, too – did it really happen? But in truth, does it really matter? This is an opportunity for all of klal Yisroel to improve our middos.December 30, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #840361
The truth of the matter is that the spitter is the least of the problems.
The problem is whole groups of grown men who go down to a school of young girls to yell at them, calling them “prutzah” and “zonah.”
The problem is a group of grown men who believe that it’s proper to hang around a school inspecting the legs of little girls for stockings rather than to remain in the beis midrash where they belong.
The problem is a group of grown men who feel that somehow yelling “prutzah” and “zonah” at people (and little children!!) is the best way to get people to dress in the style they want, rather than trying the approach of Aharon who was an Oheiv Shalom v’Rodef Shalom.
The problem is a group of men who seem to think that they can move into a mixed neighborhood with a history of harmonious living and try to force everyone to things *thier* way.
Those are the real issues. The spitter is just the straw that broke the camel’s back. And if, for the sake of argument, he never existed, that doesn’t change the real problems here, which are very real.
The WolfDecember 31, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #840362lebidik yankelParticipant
The real problem may be the secular community in Bet Shemesh who are forever egging on the Charedim.
Why do I bother? Lets let these clueless posters bash on…December 31, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #840363lebidik yankelParticipant
I take back that slur about cluelessness. It was unwarranted. I will judge Mr. Wolf lkaf zchus that he lives far from Bet Shemesh and is unaware of the realities in the area, perhaps even in Eretz Yisroel in general.
Let us take this s a rule of thumb; When you see other Jews – especially a group – accused of some aberrant behavior, ask yourself “would I believe this about people in my shul? No. So I won’t believe this about them either. There must be more to the story”
I’ll give an example; AN avreich yelled at a female soldier who was sitting among them men as a planned protest. Ok.
He was arrested. So far this is what everyone has heard.
What people may not have heard is that the police wanted to release him, and not arrest him, because he did no crime – yelling at someone is not something you are arrested for. However that soldier is a bigshot in the army and is trying to force the issue. That’s how she got him arrested.
I don’t know how it will end, but please do use your brains and good judgement; there is more than meets the eye…December 31, 2011 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #840364
WolfishMusings: That group numbers less than 30 men, from a city of 100,000 people. Secondly, if that’s the issue, I’ve addressed the legalities of the protesters here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-best-response-to-the-rbs-terror (Read all my comments there.) Thirdly, you should be more bothered by what is being protested than by the protesters, considering that from a secular law perspective both dressing immodestly and protesting that is both legal, yet from a halachic perspective both aren’t legal.December 31, 2011 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #840365
I will judge Mr. Wolf lkaf zchus
There is absolutely no reason to be dan l’kav z’chus when it comes to me. Just like Bilaam, you are allowed to assume the worst about me.
That being said, so I assume that somehow the non-Chareidim in the area somehow instigated the yelling of “prutzah” and “zonah” at little girls?
The WolfDecember 31, 2011 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #840366
That group numbers less than 30 men, from a city of 100,000 people.
I did not dispute that.
Secondly, if that’s the issue, I’ve addressed the legalities of the protesters here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-best-response-to-the-rbs-terror (Read all my comments there.)
I’ll read it when I have the chance.
Thirdly, you should be more bothered by what is being protested than by the protesters, considering that from a secular law perspective both dressing immodestly and protesting that is both legal, yet from a halachic perspective both aren’t legal.
There are ways to properly protest and there are ways to not properly protest. Yelling “slut” and “whore” at little girls is not the proper way.
But you know what? I guess it doesn’t matter what I say. After all, if you want to question whether or not there was a spitter, why not go all the way and question whether there is even a school there and whether there are people yelling? After all, what can I say? I didn’t personally see them from seven thousand miles away, so perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about since I’m just a dumb apikorsish non-Chreidi American idiot who doesn’t know “bein y’mino l’smolo” and doesn’t deserve to even share the same universe with normal human beings, let alone those who are staunchly defending the honor of the Torah.
The WolfJanuary 1, 2012 12:04 am at 12:04 am #840367oomisParticipant
I heard from someone who has relatives in Beit Shemesh that there was in fact such a spitter. What is the difference? Do you think this has not happened before when it was NOT reported?January 1, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #840368HIEParticipant
wolf, enough with the nonsense.January 1, 2012 12:25 am at 12:25 am #840369
You know what? I don’t really care to argue the point anymore.
So fine. I’ll concede all of the following:
There was no spitter.
There was no one yelling “prutzah” or “zonah” at little girls
The people who did protest were either actors dressed to look like chareidim or maybe the whole protest never happened and was the invention of the leftist-secular media to make the chareidim look bad.
The whole non-Chareidi section of Beit Shemesh is just a construct of the leftist chareidi-hating media designed to portray the image that chilonim and dati people cause trouble for chareidim.
Happy now? I’ve agreed with all your points (and more).
The WolfJanuary 1, 2012 12:37 am at 12:37 am #840370
wolf, enough with the nonsense.
What do you care? You’ve called me a “little shnuck” on these boards in the past. Why do you care what a “little shnuck” thinks?
The WolfJanuary 1, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #840371
The *only* “point” is that there is no evidence anyone spit anyone and in all likelihood it is nothing more than a fabrication made on Channel 2. The alleged spitting is what set off the latest anti-frum bashing by the Israeli media with their frum hating enablers. Otherwise, nothing has changed in the last four months of legal protesting.January 1, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #840372always runs with scissors fastParticipant
I just read what THE WOLF contributed to this intelligent OP, with his first writing at the top. I absolutely think he is brilliant and thinks “outside the box”. btw are you a lawyer? LOLJanuary 1, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #840373zahavasdadParticipant
I found out over shabbos the children of my neighbor (who used to live on my block before he was married) moved to RBS and his daughter attends the school.
He has seen this activity for months and most people in the shul knew about it (I wasnt so friendly with them , so I didnt know)January 1, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #840374screwdriverdelightParticipant
zahavasdad, why do you care what other people think? If you DON’T consider it loshon hara, why accommodate those who do? 2nd of all, it doesn’t make a difference what YOU consider loshon hara–it makes a difference what halacha considers l”h. (If you meant to say that it is not halachically l”h, say so,don’t be so self centered.)January 1, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #840375sechelhayusherMember
if you listen and watch carefully to the video clips, you;ll see that the girl neama just said that she;s scared of going to school, which is understood when in the last weeks the protesters were standing by the corner of the block (as seen in other clips) yelling, she didn;t mention a word of the spiiting, leaving us to think its a story made up by the mother.
secondly in the clip were supposetly the yungerman says he spit on a girl (as reported in ywn), its NOT what hes saying, he said he holds that his way is the right torah way and that his rabonim hold its to be seperation, and that putting a modern girls school in a total ultra ultra sector, he didn’t answer on the spitting buisnessJanuary 1, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #840377farrockgrandmaParticipant
The 5TJT this week published the latest Aliyah chronicles, from a NY resident who moved to Beit Shemesh several years ago. The article has his own eye-witness account of the harassment of schoolchildren.January 1, 2012 4:40 am at 4:40 am #840378
The 5TJT is hardly the epitome of an unbiased observer.January 1, 2012 5:01 am at 5:01 am #840379OneOfManyParticipant
10952, I haven’t seen you address these legalities yet:
1) How does the fact that an issue hasn’t been addressed properly (Al Sharpton, the issue at hand) indicate it is ipso facto legal?
2) The fact that their protest caused an objectionable action is a good indication that it is incitement to riot. How does your proof address this point?
3) How does what they did not qualify as harassment?January 1, 2012 5:50 am at 5:50 am #840380kfbParticipant
First of all there definitely was a spitted. None of you understand what these extremists are trying to do. They are having between 10-15 children and need more places to live. They want to and eventually will make bet shemesh the next meashea rim. Their rabbonim don’t approve of their acts, but their.main concern is the end result.
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