washing netilas yadayim on shabbos

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  • #607370

    mik5
    Participant

    Is it a problem of laundering if you get your sleeves a little wet when washing your hands on Shabbos?

    #1088714

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes. Yes, it is.

    As a result, everyone should cover themselves completely in plastic bags (except for their hands, of course) before washing.

    The Wolf

    #1088715

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A big problem. This is why machmirim wash before shabbos and keep their hands inside gloves the entire shabbos, and don’t sleep at all so that they don’t have to wash negel vasser, and stay in the north pole during the summer and south pole during the winter so that it won’t be nightime and they won’t have to wash negel vasser.

    oy, shver tzu zein a yid.

    #1088716

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In all seriousness, if you’re really worried about it, just roll up your sleeves a bit.

    The Wolf

    #1088717

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    In all seriousness, if you’re worried about it, speak to your therapist.

    #1088718

    R.T.
    Participant

    “…speak to your therapist”

    Make sure he is not wearing linen (code word for denim).

    #1088719

    mik5
    Participant

    Is it a problem to get a clean garment wet [on Shabbos]?

    Even though you are not getting the garment wet in order to clean it, it is still ???? [laundering, which is forbidden].

    According to the ????? of ???? one is forbidden to get any absorbent material wet on Shabbos, because that is the first step in the laundering process. Therefore, one should be careful when washing one’s own hands or a child’s hands for ????? ???? or before the ?????? [negel vasser, or washing before a bread meal] that sleeves should not get wet.

    #1088720

    rew
    Member

    This thread started 2 YRS ago. What happened during these 2 yrs? Did any sleeves get wet?

    Seriously, Why is it so hard to pull the sleeves up a bit?

    Additionally, it can be ????? .

    #1088721

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Then don’t go go shul when it’s raining

    #1088722

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What about rain?

    #1088723

    Sam2
    Participant

    Aino Miskaven V’lo Nicha Lei

    #1088724

    mik5
    Participant

    Rain is diffferent.

    He is not doing an action with his own hands (the rain falls from the sky on its own, as opposed to me pouring water on my clothing).

    With rain – The wetting of his clothing is against his will; he doesn’t want it to happen, and would prefer that it not happen.

    The rain soils his clothing, as opposed to improving them.

    It is impossible to avoid the rain.

    Interestingly, the poskim discuss why it’s not a problem of carrying if one’s clothes get wet in the rain.

    #1088725

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    But when you open or close the door in the rain, you are with your own hands causing the water collected on the door to fall off.

    #1088726

    yehudayona
    Participant

    With getting your sleeves wet when washing, you’re also wetting your clothing against your will.

    #1088727

    rew

    the difference between now & last generation is that today we are living in the generation of instant-gratification & self-centeredness, where everything is ME ME & ONLY ME & we are too lazy to role up our sleeves to wash even if it means our clothing will get wet & even if its against halacha R”L could you believe we have reached such a low level & THIS IS ALL WHILE BEING FRUM YIDDEN.

    #1088728

    old man
    Participant

    Despite the fact that one of the poskei hador has forbidden short sleeved shirts (which solves this pseudohalachic issue), I have full confidence that the lamdanim here can find a way to forbid rolling up sleeves on shabbos . Seeing that this leaves us shirtless rl”z, someone will then invent “the Shabbos Sleeve”, which will be wildly popular among the yeshivishers, until that too will be looked upon as too modern. And so on….

    #1088729

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You mean you don’t yet have the Gramma Sink™!?

    #1088730

    mik5
    Participant

    “But when you open or close the door in the rain, you are with your own hands causing the water collected on the door to fall off.”

    On the doorknob? The doorknob is a makom pattur, so it’s OK.

    “With getting your sleeves wet when washing, you’re also wetting your clothing against your will.”

    According to some poskim, it is forbidden, on Shabbos and yom tov, to cause even a clean garment to become wet. Even a clean garment is improved with additional laundering – and wetting a garment is considering the first step in the laundering process. I already explained the numerous differences between this and walking in the rain.

    As far as sleeves are concerned, some poskim say that going out in rolled-up sleeves is considered carrying (if he would prefer that the rolled-up material not be there; the rolled-up material is not actually covering his body or serving any other function – therefore, it is a burden and you are transgressing the prohibition of carrying in a public domain on the holy Sabbath. Rav Moshe zatzal held like this.

    #1088731

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Not the doorknob. The entire outside of the door, and after the door is open for a second it also collects water on the top.

    #1088732

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: some people like to read the drasha backwards — ????? ??? ??? ??? ???. Don’t ruin their fun.

    #1088733

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Aino Miskaven V’lo Nicha Lei

    That would still be a problem if a ???? ????.

    ??? ?????, though.

    Hey, ItcheSrulik, nice to see you.

    #1088735

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: No. No Licha Lei only comes into play if it’s a Psik Reisha. This is going to be Muttar as a Psik Reisha D’lo Nicha Lei. If it’s not a Psik Reisha there’s no question that it’s Muttar.

    #1088736

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, correct that ???? ?????? is okay, but ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? is a ?????? ???????, and we are ?????.

    ??’ ???? ????? ??”? ?”? ?”? ??? ??”? ????? ??? ???”? ????”?

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=241

    #1088737

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: No because this is only D’rabannan so PRDLN”L on a D’rabannan will be okay according to everyone, no?

    #1088738

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No. That’s talking about a d’rabbonon, and it’s still assur (some are mattir because of an additional factor which doesn’t seem relevant to our case). Take a look; I linked it.

    (In my earlier post, I neglected to say that those poskim who asser are in addition to the Rema.)

    #1088739

    E-O-M
    Participant

    If wetting a fabric is assur- how about drying hands on a towel?

    #1088740

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If wetting a fabric is assur- how about drying hands on a towel?

    That’s muttar. If you want to be machmir, you can first shake off the excess water from your hands, but the minhag is to be meikil.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=179

    #1088742

    mik5
    Participant

    From Limud Torah Web site: The Maharam did not wipe his hands on a towel until he removed most of the water from them by vigorously flaying his hands. He was worried that an excess of water would result with transgressing the Issur of laundering the towel on Shabbos. The Mechaber concludes that it is a good thing to keep this Chumra. The Rama says there is no reason to keep it, for even if there is some excess water which gets on the towel, it is only done in a manner which will make the towel dirtier.

    The Magen Avraham says that the reason why the Mechaber holds this to be a Chumra, is since there is no dirt on the towel, soaking it is not considered laundering. The Tosfos Shabbos asks why in Simon 319 the Mechaber seems to hold that someone must be careful M’Iker Hadin not to soak something even when it does not have dirt on it. So we must conclude the Mechaber holds according to the reasoning of the Rama here, and considers wiping one’s hands on a towel to be dirtying the towel.

    #1088743

    mik5
    Participant

    For more information, see 39 Melachos by Rabbi Dovid Ribiat shlita, p. 728.

    #1088744

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Despite the fact that one of the poskei hador has forbidden short sleeved shirts . . .

    Really? Who? I missed this one! Suppose a boy is in shidduchim and wears short sleeved shirts – is this worse than using a non-white table cloth on Shabbat?

    #1088745

    147
    Participant

    Is it a problem of laundering if you get your sleeves a little wet So miserably uncomfortable to have a wet sleeve, so if this is not meeting criteria of “Lo Niche Leh {this is not his wish}” then what would ever qualify for definition of an action being off the hook because of “Lo Niche Leh”?

    #1088746

    mik5
    Participant

    147: Walking in the rain is OK, so you’re off the hook there.

    By getting the sleeve wet (when washing your hands), the fabric is improved by being laundered, so that is questionable (if it’s OK).

    It doesn’t go by what’s “uncomfortable.” Getting your teeth pulled may be uncomfortable, and against your wishes, but it’s not allowed because of gozez.

    Drawing blood may be uncomfortable and against your wishes, but it’s not allowed on Shabbos.

    #1088747

    Excellence
    Participant

    Forbidden short sleeved shirts?

    Guess they’ve never cooked food by a hotplate in summer for customers before without fan or air con! As a kashrut mashgiach I most definitely wear short sleeves in a hot kitchen.

    #1088748

    mik5
    Participant

    I am almost certain that Rav Moshe zt”l wore short-sleeved shirts.

    But, then again, some forbid men from wearing wristwatches (this is a Chazon Ish thing).

    #1088749

    mik5
    Participant
    #1088750

    Yosi7
    Member

    Chazon Ish was against short sleeves and whenever someone with short sleeves goes to Rav Chaim Kanievsky he asks them if they don’t have enough money to buy long sleeves. This is based on the Mishna Berurah who seems to say (somewhere in the beginning of Siman Beis) that short sleeves for men are not tznius because most people have it covered. The Minhag is not like this because Bzman Hazeh many men go with there elbows uncovered. And yes it is true that Rav Moshe went with short sleeves.

    #1088751

    mik5
    Participant

    My chavrusa told me that according to the Chazon Ish zatzal you need to wash if you touch yourself below the elbow, because the Chazon Ish zatzal considered that to be a part of the body that is usually covered.

    My chavrusa said that they looked askance at him when he was in Bnei Brak with short sleeves.

    Hmmm….

    #1088752

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Below the elbow?

    #1088754

    mik5
    Participant

    RebYid23 – I meant, above the wrist area.

    #1088755

    Yosi7
    Member

    mik5- not sure thats what the Chazon Ish says. He says anyting above the elbow not below it.

    #1088756

    Sam2
    Participant

    mik5: That doesn’t make sense. The hand-washing thing from places that are normally covered are not directly because they’re normally-covered. It’s because the parts that are normally covered are those that are sweatier because they’re where two different parts of skin meet (Zevachim 18bish).

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