We can't win

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  • #598063

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When there are aguna’s, they write stories about how the evil ultra-orthodox want to subjugate women.

    Now, a couple in NJ was arrested by the FBI for beating up a guy who wouldn’t give a ??, and who ran away from the rabbanut to america. So now they say the Ultra-orthodox are crazy fanatics who run around beating people.

    #787551

    Another name
    Participant

    As Jews, no matter what we do, we will always be in the spotlight.

    #787553

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Wolf: You wouldn’t beat a guy who was withholding a get? I would. It’s even the halacha.

    #787559

    shlishi
    Member

    pba: Only if he is halachicly required to provide it. That isn’t necessarily the case.

    #787560

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    welcome to galus, you expect to win

    #787561

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Clearly, the solution is not to get caught. 🙂

    #787562

    I’m honestly getting scared. Look how many bad things happened to us in the past few months: gedolim dying, murder, assault in the news. All before shiva asar b’Tamuz

    I’m scared for these next three weeks.

    #787563

    “I’m honestly getting scared.”

    I think thats the point…We are supposed to be terrified enough to do teshuva since it obviously wasnt happening without all the scary stuff…

    #787564

    Not giving a get is just evil…you gotta do what you gotta do, but I think beating someone up is not the answer… Running their livelihood is a better option 😉

    #787565

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So now they say the Ultra-orthodox are crazy fanatics who run around beating people.

    What, you want them to lie?

    #787566

    Blintz182
    Participant

    It probably wouldn’t have been all over the news if they hadn’t held the guy hostage and threatened to bury him alive. Kidnapping is a very attention-grabbing act. Well…ANY kind of crime is an attention-grabbing act when performed by the frum community.

    #787567

    mosheemes2
    Member

    This isn’t at all hypocritical. Imagine a religion in which wives were expected to set fire to themselves at their husband’s funeral. I’d say that that religion subjugates women. If it was then explained that this was not a problem, since people of that faith also refuse to dispose of their dead so as to not require the wives to kill themselves, that wouldn’t make me think much more highly of that faith.

    If you’re starting from the premise that there is nothing sacred about requiring a Get, and, by definition, all non-Jews do, the concept of Agunah will seem strange and beating people up to avoid it, will not seem like it’s dealing with the actual problem.

    #787568

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Only if he is halachicly required to provide it. That isn’t necessarily the case.”

    My understanding in this particular case is that a beit din in Israel had ordered him to give a get and that he had fled the country in order to avoid being sent to prison.

    #787569

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: You wouldn’t beat a guy who was withholding a get? I would. It’s even the halacha.

    No, I would not beat someone for withholding a get.

    The Wolf

    #787570

    adorable
    Participant

    I dont think I would beat them but I just cannot fathom why someone would want to do something like that. Its beyond me…..just give her the dumb get and thats it

    #787571

    apushatayid
    Participant

    You dont beat them, because in america the law is you dont kidnap, beat and threaten to kill people, no matter how noble the cause. The law doesnt like vigilante justice. With that said, I think we should be even more concerned with the FBIs insistence at the hearing in Trenton yesterday the the couple be forced to wear monitoring bracelets because their ties to Israel make them a risk to flee, the judge didnt buy that argument though (heard from someone who was in Trenton yesterday).

    #787572

    Englishman
    Member

    Perhaps he wants to continue the marriage. Not in all situation is she entitled to a divorce. Unless there are the requisite halachic justifications to insist on a get and the beis din orders him to give one, she would be deemed a moredes if she unjustifiably demands one.

    #787573

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Englishman,

    Whether she “deserves” a get or not is irrelevant to this case. Even if it was 1000% warranted, it’s still no excuse to kidnap and beat people.

    The Wolf

    #787575

    Health
    Participant

    “Now, a couple in NJ was arrested by the FBI for beating up a guy who wouldn’t give a ??, and who ran away from the rabbanut to america. So now they say the Ultra-orthodox are crazy fanatics who run around beating people.”

    I know the guy -he lives near me. I was his classmate and I still can’t figure out why he did it, even for money. There’s got to be more to the story.

    #787576

    charliehall
    Participant

    “the couple be forced to wear monitoring bracelets because their ties to Israel make them a risk to flee”

    The fact that Israel refuses to extradite some fugitives to the US or to put them on trial in Israel gives the idea that Jews are flight risks credibility. Mondrowitz has been living freely in Israel for 25 years!

    #787577

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Unless there are the requisite halachic justifications to insist on a get and the beis din orders him to give one”

    We have to accept rulings of beit din. In this case, the published reports are that it ruled that she was entitled to a get and he was ordered to give her one. In such cases, an otherwise coerced get is not considered to be coerced and she would truly be free to remarry after the get is given.

    #787578

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, I would not beat someone for withholding a get.

    Why not?

    Do you care about the woman he is torturing? What if it was your sister?

    Would you beat a guy up to prevent him from killing someone? How about to prevent him from burning down someone’s business? How about to prevent him from molesting a child?

    #787579

    Pac-Man
    Member

    The guy that was beaten up by the thug and his wife has the beis din supporting his position, including Maran Hagoen HaRav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlit”a.

    #787580

    Bagel Boy
    Participant

    violence and criminal behavior is always wrong no matter the reason, should he give his wife a get probably but you should not kidnap and threaten someone.

    #787581

    Shrek
    Member

    why can’t people just behave themselves?

    #787582

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why not?

    Do you care about the woman he is torturing?

    Why? Does “not willing to beat him up” = “not caring?”

    What if it was your sister?

    Which part of “I would not beat someone up” did you fail to understand?

    Would you beat a guy up to prevent him from killing someone? How about to prevent him from burning down someone’s business? How about to prevent him from molesting a child?

    Don’t be silly. Direct threats to life and limb are not the same as refusing to give a get. Much as I abhor people who withhold a get from their wives either to gain leverage or for petty revenge, it’s just not comparable to the cases you’re presenting.

    The Wolf

    #787583

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Don’t be silly. Direct threats to life and limb are not the same as refusing to give a get.

    Oh? Emotional pain is not as bad as physical pain?

    #787585

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Oh? Emotional pain is not as bad as physical pain?

    It’s not the same, and you know it.

    And even if it is, again, I ask, is kidnapping and beating someone up the only way to show that you care. Does my refusal to beat someone up mean that I don’t care?

    The Wolf

    #787586

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    is kidnapping and beating someone up the only way to show that you care.

    He didn’t do this because he cared, he did this to help. So yes, if you can help someone and you don’t, it shows you don’t care. Caring is not just what you feel, it’s also what you do to carry out your feelings.

    #787587

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    He didn’t do this because he cared

    I was responding to your question of “do you care about the woman…?”

    So yes, if you can help someone and you don’t, it shows you don’t care

    Is kidnapping someone and beating them up the only way to help?

    The Wolf

    #787588

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok. We don’t need to snipe at each other.

    We both know that the aguna problem is extremely tragic, and there is really no solution besides actually coercing the guy. And that is precisely what was happening here.

    If you think you could not actually beat someone, I understand that. But let’s agree that the gemara says to beat him, and that it’s basically the right thing to do.

    #787589

    Another name
    Participant

    Wolf, just wondering, not saying that beating up is the best option, but what would you have done to help this women who deserved a get?

    #787590

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, just wondering, not saying that beating up is the best option, but what would you have done to help this women who deserved a get?

    Considering the fact that I know nothing of the particulars of the case, I can’t honestly answer that question. But I categorically state that I would not have kidnapped and beat the person up. Yes, my response would even be the same if, God forbid, it was someone from my family.

    If you think you could not actually beat someone, I understand that. But let’s agree that the gemara says to beat him, and that it’s basically the right thing to do.

    No, I will NOT agree that beating him is the right thing to do. And if that makes me a sinner worthy of being beaten up myself, then so be it.

    The Wolf

    (PS – does the gemara also say you should extort $100,000 from his father too?)

    #787591

    Another name
    Participant

    Wolf, that still is not resolving the issue. For agunas it’s a lose-lose situation unless there is some rabanical intervention. And it seems you can’t come up with a more peaceful alternative solution.

    #787592

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So just explain: If it was really the only way to get her out, you wouldn’t be ok with me using force?

    Or do you think there really is another way?

    #787593

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Or do you think there really is another way?

    Again, I don’t know that it was the only way in this case — or if it’s possible that kidnapping and beating someone is ever the “only way.” In the end, it doesn’t matter — I would still not beat someone up. Period.

    And you didn’t address my other point. Does the Gemara also authorize calling up the recalcitrant husband’s father and extorting $100,000?

    The Wolf

    #787594

    Pac-Man
    Member

    No it doesn’t. And Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky signed a letter stating the husband is 100% correct in this case.

    #787595

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Is anyone here of the opinion that any Gedolim were behind the kidnapping/beating of the recalcitrant husband? I cant believe that any would be. That would give frum Jews a black eye in the press, a huge Chilul Hashem.

    #787596

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t know anything about this particular case. I’m talking about a case where he really is a rasha and extorting her for spite.

    As far as the couple extorting him, again I don’t know anything about this case.

    Answer me this: Are you saying you yourself could never bring yourself to beat someone, or do you think it is wrong if anyone does it? How about if beis din does it?

    #787597

    Bagel Boy
    Participant

    two wrongs dont make a right what the husband is doing is terrible but there is never ever a reason to get violent with another human being just because you may disagree or even despise them. this is vigilantism and it is unacceptable.

    #787598

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    this is vigilantism and it is unacceptable.

    Is vigilantism never acceptable? How about in the examples I listed above? How about if someone is preventing a person from ever getting married for spite, and there is no other recourse?

    #787599

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Answer me this: Are you saying you yourself could never bring yourself to beat someone, or do you think it is wrong if anyone does it?

    The latter.

    How about if beis din does it?

    I don’t believe that any bais din today is empowered to authorize kidnapping and beating. Based on that premise, the answer is that it is wrong if a bais din authorizes it too.

    The Wolf

    #787600

    Bagel Boy
    Participant

    violence and criminal activity begets more violence and criminal activity, no what he is doing is reprehensible but you should not sink to his level.

    #787601

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If your answer is that beis din is not authorized today, then you are saying it is the right thing, we are just not authorized.

    As it happens, I think beis din is authorized to do that today.

    #787602

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    As it happens, I think beis din is authorized to do that today.

    On what grounds do you make that statement? On what grounds do you know that a Bais Din today is allowed to make a formal p’sak din that one should be kidnapped and beaten?

    The Wolf

    #787603

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Choshen Mishpat Siman 2

    #787604

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I think beis din is authorized to do that today.”

    That is a good way to get more Jews learning full time, supported by government tax money — in federal prisons!

    #787605

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Charlie. it is true there is no extradition treaty. In this particular case, the defendent was to israel and back at least 5 times since being served. If he wanted to run away and not come back, he would have done that already. The defendents voluntarily surrendered to the FBI and appeared in court willingly. Despite that, the prosecutor still insisted they were a flight risk because of their “ties to israel”. The judge thankfully saw through that and didn’t agree. He did place limited restrictions on their movement though. They can’t leave the state without prior notification.

    #787606

    RSRH
    Member

    Popa, you bring up siman 2 (I LOVE siman 2). Doing so raises a problem of jurisdiction. While a beis din in Israel may be able to exercise power under siman 2; and its legitimate authority over Israelis might even allow private Israelis to beat a m’sarev get after a beis din rules he must give one, its not clear why an Israeli beis din’s ruling should have any power in the U.S. A beis din has to have jurisdiction and power over parties and geographical locations. In the absence of true smichah, this can only be accomplished by kabbalah by individual litigants for a particular case, or by a beis din’s being generally appointed by a kehillah to exercise judicial authority over that population and locale. Undoubtedly, an Israeli rabanut beis din has this kind of authority – in its area of jurisdiction. But an Israeli beis din’s rulings would seem to not have binding authority in the U.S. unless confirmed by a beis din of competent jurisdiction (and according to R. Moshe Feinstien – I will try to find the exact citation – virtually no U.S. beis din has general jurisdiction over a given population or locale, and jurisdiction depends on parties accepting a particular beis din to adjudicate their particular case).

    #787607

    Health
    Participant

    The problem with this case and a lot of cases – that there are two sides. He also had a Bais Din that sided with him. The reason a lot of people withold the Get is because they feel that they weren’t treated fairly in the Bais Din or Court of law. Sometimes this isn’t true and the husband just wants to be mean. But unfortunately, a lot of times it is. The Bottey Dinnim and Courts aren’t always where Justice takes place. To say that nowadays the Bottey Dinim have the right to enforce their Psakim with violence, is showing that you are extremely ignorant of what happens in our “Justice” systems nowadays.

    The way it appears to me is that the father of the wife used the Bais Din in EY to throw the guy under the bus. He then hired henchmen to do his dirty work. I believe that this is a good possibility, even though of course I can’t know 100%. But for s/o to claim that anyone can take the law into their own hands without even taking into consideration of this possibility is putting their heads in the sand!

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