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One of the many bad things PETA has done is make people think all animal welfare activists are crazy, while in actuality most animal welfare activists are normal but animal “liberation” activists are insane. But there are real animals that are suffering, and while they need not be treated like humans we must remember they are living, conscious beings that can feel pain. So we should make sure that when we buy a dozen eggs, we are not buying from a factory farm that keeps hens in cramped cages and uses cruel means to force them to produce more eggs. Make sure you only support farms that provide clean air, fresh water, enough space for the animal depending on its size, and medical care. If you plan to have a pet, look into adopting a shelter animal. If you see animals being abused, do something. And remember that every living creature deserves some respect.
Anyone who comments on this is either callous or just going off topic.
(This one doesn’t count it’s just an observation)
Is it still tzaar baalei chayim if science figures out a away to genetically labotamise animals and make them not feel any suffering?
Giving an animal a lobotomy would’t stop any suffering. Besides, what is a genetic lobotomy?
I know, I’m being metaphorical. I’m not trying to be biologically accurate. I just meant if the chickens were genetically modified to not feel pain… interesting shayla, I think.
The whole issue of animal rights is a misnomer. Animals have no rights since they can not exercise any rights. The real issue is that we have responsibilities toward animals to treat them humanely and should not tolerate abuses of any kind.
The problem with animal rights activists like PETA, is their is no balance and they don’t care about people, like when Yasser Arafat, y’s, used animals laden with bombs to try to kill Jews, they were only concerned about the animals.
RebYidd23, that’s a cop out answer unless you explain why it’s forbidden, but let’s say we didn’t genetically modify them, but someone else already did.
When I buy a dozen eggs, I am not about to investigate where it came from. How many people really are going to do this except for the PETA nuts?
I think RebYidd answered it earlier. He mentioned, besides pain, “that every living creature deserves some respect.” I agree to this.
HaLevi – Mercy, yes, but “respect”? Do you have a source from Torah/Chazal of this concept of “respect” for animals, or is this just an emotional response? From a mussar perspective, you shouldn’t do anything that is outright disparaging to animals because it affects your character and will likely translate to humans too. However, is disrespcting an animal in a way that wouldn’t affect your middos still wrong? Not saying it isn’t; just asking.
“Animals have no rights since they can not exercise any rights. The real issue is that we have responsibilities toward animals to treat them humanely and should not tolerate abuses of any kind.”
Well said.
i think this is ridiculous. I have always loved animals and have owned many because i don’t have the heart to turn away an abandon creature. But even in my own obsession im mature enough to be aware that it is not about the animals at all. people are personifying animals based on themselves and their own feelings. what actually bothers an animal is minimal in terms of the things labelled by some as abuse.
and by the way, i find our cat to be somewhat abusive to my younger kids. We cannot declaw him and i find him taking full advantage of that. what are my rights?
Barry and Charlie
what do you mean by not tolerating abuse?
does someone really deserve to go to jail for animal abuse?
Because that happens frequently. And IMO opinion I find it difficult to justify.
mentsch1: People like Michael Vick, who made money off of the callous, intentionally cruel abuse of animals, causing pain to creatures for their own fun and pleasure, deserve their jail terms IMO. People who are carelessly, unintentionally cruel, without realizing what they are doing… I don’t know.
Syag Lchochma- There’s a big difference between giving animals rights like a person and allowing others to cause animals tzaar. Have you seen what egg farms look like? There are some that are decent, and unfortunately too many that have the hens cramped into buildings with no room to move. They are also treated like machines, tricked into laying three eggs a day. There’s a reason avian flu spread so quickly.
writer
you can argue that by almost all animal slaughter, people making money from animal “cruelty”. its a slippery slope
In addition jail robs a human of his freedom and is inherently cruel, can you justify doing that to a person because he hurt an animal?
This morning on the NYC news they were discussing kids that ran over canada geese to make a cool video. These kids will probably be arrested. sure what they did lacked sensitivity, but the government kills these geese all the time. and is killing them with a car much different then a needle, stun gun or shcita knife?
mentsch1: There are Halachas involving Tzar Ba’alei Chayim. Should someone go to jail? It depends on what they do.
Do you feel that abusing animals, or anything else is ok? I don’t get the question.
Are we a civil society or not? Well, maybe I shouldn’t ask that last question anymore.
Barry
I’m simply pointing out the degree to which PETA has been successful. It’s not unlike what just happened with toeva.
Our society thinks it’s ok to take a human being and degrade them. To lock them up. To put them in a locked jail where they will be abused. For the “sin” of abusing an animal.
Of course its not ok to abuse an animal. But it’s an animal.
where do you draw the line?
Why can I kill a mouse in my house but not the cat that keeps on digging up my front lawn (punishable by jail in NYC)?
why does the “rights” of an animal justify taking away the rights of a person.
Why not leave this persons punishment up to GOD, just because his actions disgust us doesnt mean we need to punish him and degrade him?
The fact that you think its ok to send him to jail is because your thinking has been altered by the animal rights group.
Why can I kill a mouse in my house but not the cat that keeps on digging up my front lawn
According to Halacha can a person kill a mouse running around his house? According to Halacha can a person kill a cat repeatedly digging up his front lawn?
Joseph, assuming it’s not someone else’s cat, and assuming you aren’t violating the law of the land, yes. It is permissible.
Joseph
Even if it was against halacha, how does that translate into sending someone to jail.
Stealing is against halacha, but that doesn’t mean I would send them to jail.
If I was on a jury and a 16 year old boy was brought in front of me for shoplifting a chocolate bar, I would not send him to jail
Jail is for the most violent of criminals who can’t be around other people.
I would do what the torah says, make him pay a fine.
People need to be sensitive to animals because we need to be sensitive people, not because they have rights.
Peoples rights should always trump animal rights
I agree with my esteemed father-in-law (BarryLS1) on most points here. Before the Mabul, Chazal tell, us it was Asur to use animals for our own use, or to eat them. Since Noach saved the animals, we gained a certain mastery over them, and the right to eat certain ones – along with the Achrayus of treating them Al Pi Halachah. Additionally, acting cruelly toward Hashem’s Beriyos causes one to become crueller, and Derech Eretz Kadma la’Torah. Therefore, in spirit, I agree with the OP that we must not treat animals cruelly.
I do have two issues with the OP, however, and they are related. One is that I do not currently abuse any animals, and therefore why would I agree that “we” have to stop doing so?
The second is that Hashgacha on the Halachic permissibility of consuming animal products and the conditions under which said animals are held – even if, CH”V, contrary to Halacha – are two different things. A Hashgacha mark on an item on the supermarket shelf does not tell me anything about those conditions, nor should it. Anyone can do their own research, ask their own Shailos, and make their own decisions – and they should – but to imply that “we” are abusing animals because we are buying kosher eggs or meat (assuming that it is kosher!) I find disingenuous.
Reb Yid is right. Yasher koach.
I would just add that the animal liberation people are not literally insane. They are just confused. In practice, their lifestyles (abstaining from all animal products in food and clothing) do somewhat more than others in reducing animal suffering.
Because of the attractiveness of the vegan/liberationist ideology to so many, my opinion is that a frum Jew should not be a pure or strict vegetarian, even though that is permissible, but at least make ocassional exceptions, so that one is merely near-vegetarian or near-vegan (even 99% if they wish).
The reason is because veganism/liberationism, aside from convincing people that such things as tallis and teffilin and korbanos are necessarily wrong (c”v’s!), has become a religion in itself for many people, making them feel like that is enough and they don’t need any other beliefs. So to avoid getting sucked into this worldview, it’s a good idea for frum people on a plant-based diet to eat a symbolic amount of animal foods from time to time.
Rebyidd
I’m not confusing anything
I’m making a point and the point is that Halacha needs to guide our sensitivities not the other way around.
You made an opening point that you can’t be cruel to animals . as the Gemara would say “pshita”
But then you said “I’d you see animals being abused do something about it”
What do you propose? Calling the police?
Then you implied it was against Halacha to buy eggs from certain poultry farms. Do you have proof for this?
I did see that argument being made by the conservative movement when they created their own “hashgacha” that only certifies poultry farms that are “humane”.
I applaud you for your extra sensitivity in the mitzva of tzar bal lchaim
But halachic definitions of what is considered humane is far different from current secular thinking
To build on what mentsch1 has written:
The only possible Isur I can imagine to purchase eggs from a farm that is Over on Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim (again, this has absolutely nothing to do with condoning such practices) would be either Lifnei Iver or Mesayei’a li’Dvar Aveirah. Since, however, they are carrying out their practices of their own volition, and could do so whether or not we buy the eggs (nobody is demanding eggs at a certain price or frequency, and it is definitely not Trei Ibra d’Nahara), these would not seem to apply in such a case.
In the Mishnayos in Shabbos it is clear that animals were force-fed in order to be fattened for slaughter (the only Shaila being if such is Mutar on Shabbos). In the famous story involving Rebbi, a frightened calf being led to the slaughter hid its face in Rebbi’s garment, and he sent it off with a “Go – for this you have been created”. He was punished according to his Darga for being insensitive to the calf’s “feelings” – not because his message was incorrect.
Obviously we have Chiyuvim. The first stage, for those in the position to do something about it, is to clarify what those Chiyuvim are with a competent Halachic authority (which I am not).
Here’s the deal:
Hechsherim are not only about the strict Kashrus of the food. Establishments are routinely refused hechsherim due to non food related issues such as the lack of tznius of their wait staff or even their name.
If a restaurant having non tznius servers is reason enough to not give the place a hechsher then torturing animals being used for food should be enough of a reason to refuse a hechsher. If it isn’t then is says something (probably negative) about our priorities.
mentsch1: PETA wasn’t a consideration in anything I said. They are a bunch of wacho’s with an agenda. They care nothing for people and truth be told, I doubt they really care about animals either.
Weren’t they caught, in their “humane” kennels euthanizing kittens just to save or make more money, so they don’t have to take care of them. The Huffington Post, a liberal paper/web site reported that in 2013.
I was speaking solely from a Torah perspective.
I’m not a PETA fan, but euthanizing animals in shelters is standard practice in the vast majority of animal shelters. There’s a movement, known as no-kill shelters, in which they only “put down” those who are aggressive and dangerous or already dying. But they’ve only succeeded in taking over a small slice of the animal shelter world so far.
Some authorities permit causing extra pain to animals in order to make more money (which is what the various animal welfare abuses in modern factory farms are for.) Other authorities disagree.
It is better to be strict and only buy meat and dairy and eggs from producers who don’t engage in the cruel practices common in the modern industrialized factor farms (like beak-cutting, confining animals in small spaces, etc.)
Our ancestors only ate dairy and eggs and meat from small producers — there were no massive factory farms in the shtetl! Everything was cage-free and grass fed! Factory farms inflict a lot of suffering on animals that we know from experience is not necessary, and these particular techniques are not part of our mesorah. So why get involved in it? To save a bit of money or afford more meat and dairy and eggs? It’s not worth it.
It’s true that some of our ancestors force fed geese, but at that time pate was believed to be an important health food that could provide necessary nutrients. And modern poskim have all banned the practice. Similarly cruel practices such as those involved in veal raising have been banned by Rav Moshe.
We should also work toward legislation, along with non-extremist animal welfare groups, to reduce the worst practices to reduce unnecessary animal suffering.
You know what is sickening?
There are farms which raise cows and chickens, and they absolutely refuse to give the animals antibiotics, even if they are sick! These animals can have festering sores, but no, the farmers will not given them even one antibiotic shot that costs a couple bucks.
You know why? Because then the meat won’t be “organic” and the PETA types won’t buy it.
The PETA types are vegan.
I’ve never considered eating them, but that’s good to know.
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