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how are all of these tziniut?
they’re probably not if you ask some posters here.
it doesnt matter. its the mesora.
I recently discussed this exact matter with a choshuv rabbi and he told me that indeed it is not tznius, but it is important so we are meikel. he said we know its important because its the mesora.
This has always troubled me. This is the holiest day of a woman’s life, all her Avoinois are being Mechaper, and she is wearing a dress in public, which fits in a way she would never ever be seen in public. How is this right? Is this the way to begin a Bayis Neeman? And people wonder why they don’t have Shalom Bayis. The Rabbanim should gather together and refuse to attend such weddings. Who knows whether this has caused us such a long and terrible Galus.
Well wouldn’t it be less tznius if the kallah wasn’t wearing a dress?
You don’t HAVE TO walk down an aisle, but you have to get the couple to the chuppah somehow. So that happens to be the most popular choice, currently, given the setup of most halls. If you choose to get married in a more chassidishe or laid back hall, you can have a chuppah on the street and just escort the couple through the crowd out to it.
this has been around since before the galus
Actually, the custom of wearing a white dress became popular after the wedding of an English queen, Victoria maybe. It became secular custom and was adopted by the Jews too. But a bride always wore a particularly nice dress, no, to set her apart from the rest of the women there? Or at least, she wore her best dress to start off married life on a nice note.
Maybe the Ashkenazim should adopt the Yemenite wedding attire.
Are we discussing the Kallah or her sisters, friends, etc.
What has been around since before the galus?
Where did the Kallah dressing in a white dress come from?
Where did walking down the aisle come from?
Also, who said wearing a form-fitting dress is acceptable? Most frum Kallah’s do NOT wear that B”H.
I smell a sock puppet.
Question? How many of the above posters are men and how many are women. If you are men, you shouldn’t be looking at the bride if this disturbs you.
Why don’t we just insist that all brides wear potato sacks or 1960 style dress mumus. That way everyone wins except of course for the bride.
Walking down the aisle came from the church.
Walking down the aisle came from the church.
If it came from Avoda Zora, how is it possible to do?
shlishi- good question!
I didnt say it came from avoda zora. What I meant is that this custom originally stemmed from christian weddings which take place in churches. The general format of christian weddings: center aisle, and pple seated to the right and left of the aisle.
If you’ve ever been to a chuppa in Erets Yisroel, you’d see that it’s run very differently…..
I don’t see a distinction. Christian marriages are a function of the church.
And in either event, I would find it disgusting to imitate it, whether it is a church service (and outright avoda zora as I contend) or if were “only” copying the Christian marriage ceremony.
And what is the non-excuse for the mothers and sisters of the groom and bride to dress in these inappropriate dresses?
My wife wore a black burqua instead of a wedding gown. Of course, if didn’t matter anyway, because she was up in the ezrat nashim/balcony. I said “??? ?? ?????? ??” with a megaphone.
mamash: I notice you are a big fan of letzanus here. The Mesilas Yeshorim says a small amount of letzanus can override 100 proofs.
I think we should do away with the entire chassuna as we know it and spend the 20 (or 30, or more)thousand dollars on other things. We can avoid all of the ills that plague society at once. Those who feel it is a breach of tznius will be happy. Yeshiva administrators will be happy because they can now turn to the parents for all this money for schar limud. people wouldnt spend beyond their means thereby negating the need for the resulting takanos to save people from themselves. The only ones who wont be happy are the caterers and musicians. We can keep the caterers happy by giving them say 10% of what we would have spent on a chasuna and they in turn would use that money to prepare meals for those who unfortunately dont have a meal of their own. The musicians, hmmm, I’m stuck.
Is the discussion about walking down the aisle? Is it about dressing inappropriately (which is a discussion for the grocery store as much as it is a chasuna)? Is it about women walking down the aisle in front of men and vice versa?
ok here is the next step. First we erase women’s image from our newspapers. Next women are not allowed near the gravesite when their loved ones are being buried. Then we don’t allow Father’s to attend their daughter’s graduation. Now brides should not be in wedding gowns walking down the aisle. We really have learned so much from our muslim brothers on how to make our women proud to be Jews. No wonder so many of our young people are otd when some people portray yiddishkeit so ugly.
No wonder so many of our young people are otd when some people portray yiddishkeit so ugly.
Perhaps people are OTD because when things are so loose, some people think laws have no meaning and everything is a free-for-all.
Pac-Man: The letzanus here is all the posters who never learned K’subos passing off their Boich Svoros as Torah MiSinai. I bet most posters so far don’t know about the Kallah going to the Chupah (of her first marriage) with her hair uncovered. Another thing is that on many things the church copied us, not the other way around.
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Mayan: Going TO the Chupa with her hair uncovered or FROM the Chupa? In the latter case she is already an eishes ish with a chiyuv to have covered hair.
A previous poster indicated “walking down the aisle” stems from church weddings.
what is the issue with a kallah walking down the isle? you really think they look attractive?
To Pac man: That is an interesting teitch of leitzana achas docheh meah tochachos. I believe the word tochacha is more conventionally translated as reproof.
As far as the general topic is concerned, I would advise all commenters to look at the gemara in ksubos. It explicitly permits looking at the Kalla in such a way that would give the appearance of being mechabev her to her husband. It is similar to the comment of Kalla naeh vachasuda. Normally a male would NEVER comment on the appearance of a woman. But to be mechabev her on her husband, and increase the simchas chasan v’kallah, it is muttar. Yes, it is human nature, and the gemara recognizes it is so, that if the chosson thinks that others recognize that his kalla is attractive, he will feel better about his choice.
I don’t know that this is the kavana of these form fitting eye attracting dresses, but for the kalla herself it is probably not such a big avla, based on the above gemara.
A kallah walks down to the chuppah with a veil covering her whole face. So I dont see how that is a breach of tznius. If you’re talking about the mothers of the chosson and kallah then maybe you have a point
And about the gowns…the nature of a gown is to be form fitting but most frum people dont wear it so tight that its untznius
yudy1234…and we wonder why OTD has become a big problem….
canine: some chassidim put on a shaitel after the chuppah. I had an early wedding with a sheva brochos that evening. My Rav who is a respected Talmid Chochom in Flatbush, said my wife does not need to cover her hair before going to the sheva brochos.
How do you know the church didn’t copy us? Would you say that “Es biti nasati la’ish hazeh” is also a church thing or perhaps the ‘father of the bride’ takes her to the ‘alter’ comes from us?
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Mike: You think the OTD crisis stems in part from the fact that people see others seemingly getting away with non-tznius dress? You make a good point, and I cant say I disagree with you.
midswesterner: Said Gemora doesn’t loosen tznius requirements at a wedding, even for a Kallah, her mother, sisters, mother-in-law, and sisters-in-laws.
i never saw a kallah that wore a loose gown but for some reason its the accepted thing. they also wear their hair longer than they would on a regular basis and maybe even more makeup than they would
1.
The white gown actually does NOT come from Queen Victoria, nor from some symbol of purity.
The white gown was actually a innacted by chazal ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??, not embarrass someone who cannot afford it. In the times of Chazal white clothing were the norm because it was the cheapest and didn’t require any dying of the materials.
The jealousy that the kesones passim which Yaakov gave to Yosef caused, wasn’t just that the brothers recieved a solid black suit and Yosef recieved a pinstripe, rather the entire jacket was made from scratch differently. The threads were dyed different colors, and the cloth was weaved custom made, showing the extreme love that Yaakov had shown to Yosef more than the brothers. Thus Chazal innacted the white gown to prevent embaressmant, jealousy, and hated.
2.
While the aisle at weddings may have a non-Jewish source, in todays day in age, with all the mixing of genders, could you imagine what would be going on if we in Amewrica did the Israeli style??
Wow! We are some holy bunch; much frumer than our g’dolim and ancestors ever were.
Ever hear of the yiddish expression, “firen tzim chippa”? It means to walk your children down to the chuppa. And they went with an entourage. Ever hear of the “kallah na’ah vlchasusa”, it’s what you sing when you see the kallah and observe and proclaim her beauty. You want “Rabbanim should gather together and refuse to attend such weddings”, well what do you think the Rabbi’s wives and daughters wore at their weddings?
Just about all universal Jewish and even non-Jewish wedding customs can be found in the g’mara. It was even customary to make weddings on erev Shabbos and have non-Jews play music at the seuda which took place ON SHABBOS.
So stop all your whining and try to work on your own midos before yapping off on time treasured customs.
What is the Israel style?
“perhaps the ‘father of the bride’ takes her to the ‘alter”
You talking der alter from slabodka or kelm?
Non jews don’t take anyone to the alter, they take they to the altar.
way to go cherrybim. I do have to say some people do say what i would like to say much more eloquently than i. I love this room
I knew my last post would not make it because of 1 word. So i will be a bit more kind. Jakyweb beware. we think alike and there are people on this thread that don’t have the same common sense or outlook about middos and otd etc that we have. I just sure hope these people are not in a position to do anyone harm with there opinions. It would be such a waste of yiddishe yungerleit.
Firstly it is a parents’ dream to walk their child down to the chupah. This is customary and obviously they walk down an isle to the Chupah. What else is there to walk down. And the isle should be long enough to have meaning to the parents. It is a very special and amazing moment. If you are NOT a parent that hasn’t experiences this Brocha you probably will not understand.
People have different minhagim. I was at a Chasuna in E”Y where the parents walked the Chasson to the outdoor chupa and the men followed and then the parents walked the Kallah and then the women followed. So there was no isle per se. When there is an outdoor Chupa, there might not be an isle either because there is no seating and people just stand around the sidewalk.
But that is the custom and if you choose not to follow that custom it is your choice at the time your child gets married. In addition, who are you to complain about the Kallah’s dress? The Kallah dresses like a queen on the day of her chasana. She will dress in the same tsnius manner that she dresses always. If she wears more cut out always she will carry that into her wedding dress as well. If she is extremely tznius it will show in her wedding dress as well. Everyone does according to their own standard and their own custom. It is foolish to have this discussion and have another go round picking on a Kallah this time.
Try to tell your Kallah, or your daughter not to dress up on the day of her chassanah. See how foolish you come off. Go ask your Rav if you are in the right? I have been to many chassidk weddings where the Kallah’s gown had everything on it except bells and whistles. To me it was too much, but to the Kallah she felt like a princess so kol hakovod, she is supposed to feel that way and no one should deny her that.
adorable, they wear more makeup so it lasts through the night and so the pictures show her off to the best advantage. The kallah has to be the most beautiful woman in the whole entire room.
APY: thanks for catching that! But what’s wrong with ‘Der Alter Rebbe’ [Ba’al Hatanya?] or the entire line of Gerrer Rebbes?
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Why must everyone play up to the photographer? The point of the wedding is to be msameach choson v’kalla, not to look good on paper.
I agree about the makeup and that is why I hesitated before writing it (not that you should know that something the mods dont even know ….) but what about the hair? i went to a wedding last night and the kallah’s hair was all the way down her back! what is the excuse?
cherrybim…well said
I have long been amazed that we even have women at weddings at all. After all, she doesn’t really need to be there. K’ddushin can be done via a sh’liach. Nisuin requires no more than two witnesses and doesn’t need to involve any more than a car trip from her parents’ home to the chosson’s home.
The Wolf
“Kallah nah vachasuda.”
I wonder if there is a 3rd opinion not recorded in shas that argued with both beis shammai and beis hillel and said, she shouldnt even be here, let alone comment on her lookss, it isnt tznius.
@ Mayan: There is nothing “wrong” with anyone you mentioned. When I hear “the alter” I think slabodka and kelm, must be the litvak in me. 🙂
OMG i finally agree with pac-man on something.Most important thing at the wedding is to be msameach choson v’kallah. I have seen some pictures of people when they put their pictures on “only simchas” sticking their tongues out. I am really sorry but this is ugly and uncalled for. Yes i do agree pictures are a big part of the wedding, my wife and i still look at ours after 21 great years, but if our simcha was not as lebedik as it was but we had great pictures it would not have been the same. Good thing we had great pictures and great everything else.
WolfishMusings…another classic post by the Wolf!
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