Weird, but I don't know if this has any halachic implication

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  • #1146985

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jusumphryid, I did some work for a reliable west coast organization.

    A reliable organization let “some frei yid” serve as mashgiach?

    #1146986

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I know a frei yid who has served as a mashgiach to make milk chalav yisroel when the regular mashgiach couldnt make it.

    #1146987

    YW Moderator-79
    Moderator

    bump

    #1146988

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Why?

    #1146989

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, I don’t think that’s b’seder.

    Re – upthread reference to pig hooves – I don’t think they’re food.

    #1146990

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Agree whole heartedly. Nonetheless this was (and perhaps still is though it may have changed in the past 2 years) the reality for a large and well known “chalav yisroel” company. Milking is often done at early hours and far from frum communities when the regular mashgiach couldnt make it he sent someone who wasn’t religous.

    #1146991

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Nobody milks cows anymore, its done by machines. The pipes for the Udders only fit a cows udder, they do not fit a Pigs udder or any other animals udder

    It is impossible to mix the milk anymore

    #1146992

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is impossible to mix the milk anymore

    Of course it’s possible.

    #1146993

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    Go to a Dairy farm, everything is automated, you really have to want to mix the milk to mix it. Human hands never touch anything from the cow, to the giant contains that hold the milk to the milk truck that carts it away

    #1146994

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    you really have to want to mix the milk to mix it.

    Right. The gezeirah was that someone who really wants to will mix in milk folrom a beheimah temeiah (any, not just pig).

    If there was a mashgiach ensuring that the process went as it is supposed to, including the packaging, it would be cholov Yisroel. If not, it’s cholov stam. Nothing changed in that regard.

    #1146995

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Milk from a non-kosher animal costs more than milk from a cow so there is no financial incentive to do so

    #1146996

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Go to a Dairy farm, everything is automated”

    This may be true on larger farm, but it is not the case on the smaller farms, where there is still some manual intervention.

    And there are thousands of smaller farms and they sell their milk to the same bottlers.

    #1146997

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    nisht – interesting point. I don’t know much about the farming industry. Just curious tho, do you know that as a fact or are you just mentioning it as a fact because zd said differently?

    #1146998

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Milk from a non-kosher animal costs more than milk from a cow so there is no financial incentive to do so”

    Who is buy9ng the milk form the non kosher animal? The farmer is not selling it separately and he is not buying it,. However he may have non-kosher animals of all sorts on the farms that have milk and by mixing it in he can sell something he wouldn’t be able to sell otherwise.

    One needs to be a Chochom besides being a Talmud Chochom to come up with a legitimate heter.

    #1146999

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Syag,

    Just based on my drives around the mountains during the summer and visiting dairy producing areas and a tour of a large Dairy farm where they said that as part of the tour.

    The real question is why ZD said why there is no manual intervention.

    #1147000

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ive been to the farms as well

    basically what is done is the cows are herded to a milking barn and metal rods are placed on their udders

    the udders are hooked up to some machine that sucks out the milk and it is put into a Giant vat

    There arent milkmaids anymore sitting on a stool milking the cow, it takes too long, The machine can milk the cow fairly quickly

    Also if you have ever been to a farm, there are always alot of flies there. The machines prevent the flies from getting into the milk vat which is an issue for the health inspectors

    #1147001

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It doesn’t make much of a difference if everything is automated, as long as it’s not impossible to manually intervene.

    Many of these types of factors, including that the cost of non kosher milk exceeds that of kosher milk, are discussed in the poskim. The bottom line is that if you rely on R’ Moshe’s heter, and aren’t machmir on the treifah shailah, it’s okay, and if you’re makpid on the classic definition of cholov Yisroel (or the treifah issue), you need to buy milk which has been supervised.

    #1147002

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    nisht – that is nice, im jealous. i kinda wish i had farms nearby.

    The manual intervention question isnt MY real question, im not really concerned with the particulars of that topic. i just noticed that no matter what the topic is or whether or not you have been posting, if zd says something, you are right there pointing out how wrong he is. the idea that you had knowlege on even this was interesting to me and i very much appreciate your answer.

    #1147003

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    zd – you seem to be trying to explain how milk from other animals doesn’t inadvertently get mixed in, and the people responding to you are answering that milk CAN get mixed in, even if it is not inadvertantly happening thru the milking machines. You are correct, but the second issue of intentional mixing is still a concern.

    #1147004

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    So how are the “rods” put onto the udders?

    There is manual intervention there.

    Nowhere does it say that Cholov Yisroel is only applicable to hand milked bovine or ovine.

    That is a new heter that you just manufactured and one that I doubt you are qualified to make.

    It is clear to everyone that Rav Moshe’s heter only applies in the United States or possibly other countries with similar laws and related mirtas.

    It would not apply in Mexico and the large farms are operated the same way as in the US with similar machinery.

    #1147005

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Does anyone know if the “treifah shailah” applies outside the USA, where Cholov Yisroel is required anyway?

    #1147006

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    SL,

    Maybe it is interesting how often ZD professes knowledge about so many things that he is so obviously and drastically wrong about.

    And it is always with an agenda. I doubt I am the only one to note or comment on this.

    #1147007

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Maybe it is interesting how often ZD professes knowledge about so many things that he is so obviously and drastically wrong about.”

    I dont find this to be true as often as you do, i don’t find this to be true exclusively of him, and i do find that he somehow avoids EVER being rude, which is really my area of interest. I have learned that when we (me too) jump on something with excessive passion we need to question our real motives.

    And it is always with an agenda.

    I would argue on the always. in private. Everyone here has an “agenda”.

    I doubt I am the only one to note or comment on this.

    that is proof of nothing. there are people here who will comment on a lot of things and being right never seems to be a concern for them. There are some who are very nasty and cutting and in their own minds they are 100% right and fighting Gds fight. but that is only because they, too, were raised with an agenda. And people with agendas sometimes have conversations about non-agenda topics that just don’t require this level of m’acha

    I admire your motive, i question your passion (which, by the way, does not need to concern you in the least)

    #1147008

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    The reason the Chachomim required cholov Yisroel was not because of inadvertent mixing. It was specifically because of concerns of intentional mixing of non kosher milk.

    The reasoning for R Moshe’s heter makes sense for intentional mixing, but not so much so for inadvertent mixing.

    #1147009

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Question for ZD: You seem to think automation changed the halachah. In which way? Would the poskim who didn’t agree with R’ Moshe be now be mattir? Would unsupervised milk (e.g. other countries) now be acceptable?

    Both of those in my opinion aren’t true, but I’m curious to know specifically what nafka mina (practical difference) you think automation brings.

    Gavra, it would depend on whether the specific brand/hechsher is makpid.

    #1147010

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    It didnt change the Halacha, Chalav Akum is still forbidden, however I am saying the milk is not Chalac Akum , Its Chalav Machine meaning the cow was not milked by a goy or a jew. it wasnt milked by any person. It was milked by a machine which is a different category.

    I think other countries depend of the county. A western country that everything is automated is not the same as some third world country where people really do milk the cows by hand

    #1147011

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’ll ask my two questions again:

    1. Would the poskim who disagrees with Rav Moshe now be mattir?

    2. If a foreign country had the same manufacturing process but no government regulation, would it be muttar according to Rav Moshe?

    It seems that you think the answer to these two questions is yes, but I would like you to confirm or deny, because the answer is no, and I don’t think anyone of authority says otherwise.

    Your new category of “cholov hamachine” does not make sense since the issue was never who did the milking, but rather whether there was supervision ensuring cholov tamei wasn’t mixed in. Your new heter seems to based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gezeirah was.

    #1147012

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the poskim who still disallow it I dont think they say anyone who eats Chalav stam is doing an Averiah. If you ask one of these Rabbanim does someone get an averiah for eating oU-D Haagen Daze ice cream I dont think they would say yes, but they might discourage you from eating it.

    #1147013

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many poskim hold you do get an aveira. Some poskim hold it is treif.

    #1147014

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oh please….

    #1147015

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, you still haven’t answered my questions.

    #1147016

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I most certainly did answer the question,

    There are Poskim who do not hold by O-U Star-K or other mass market hashghcha and only want their people to eat their own approved hashchas, does that make the mass market hashgchas treif

    #1147017

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Many poskim hold you do get an aveira. Some poskim hold it is treif.

    This is true. Cholov Akum or Bishul Akum creates Tarfus in pots, for example. If Cholov HaCompanies is Cholov Akum, it creates the same Tarfus.

    Don’t be shocked, you would Kasher a Milchig spoon that you put into your chicken soup by mistake.

    There are Poskim who do not hold by O-U Star-K or other mass market hashghcha and only want their people to eat their own approved hashchas, does that make the mass market hashgchas treif

    Chitim B’Seorim. Notice the word “want”. This is a Takanas Chazal, not some Rabbi’s “want”.

    #1147018

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They were simple yes or no questions, which you answered with vague talk about cholov stam and vague analogies, but no yes or no.

    Gavra, as I recall, keilim on bishul aku”m is not so pashut.

    #1147019

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    GAW

    If someone went to the Rebbe and said they ate McDonalds and another said they ate OU-D Haagen Daze Ice cream do you really think you would get the same reaction

    #1147020

    Joseph
    Participant

    Maybe it is interesting how often ZD professes knowledge about so many things that he is so obviously and drastically wrong about.

    I dont find this to be true as often as you do, i don’t find this to be true exclusively of him, and i do find that he somehow avoids EVER being rude

    You spoke too soon, Syag:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/paskening-on-ywn#post-607471

    #1147021

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    why is that rude?

    🙂

    #1147022

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ll tell you after I’m done with the line outside my door waiting to ask me shailas. 🙂

    #1147023

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Joseph

    If I stand online outside your door will you give me a Bracha?

    #1147024

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Anyway, this whole Cholov Yisroel stuff is just chumra creep. New Chimeras. Did you ever hear of this 50 years ago? Or in Europe?

    They always ate strawberries with cream from the Poritz.

    And they would even sprinkle it with peanuts and corn even on Pesach.

    However, McDonalds was even brought down as issur by the old rebbeims in the polish shtetl.

    #1147025

    Joseph
    Participant

    Of course. You don’t even need to stand online.

    You should be gebentched to be so rich that you can quit your job and learn full time in the Bais Medrash every day of the week. And afford to marry Zahava off to a Talmid Chochom who will learn in Kollel his entire life, with you supporting their mishpacha from your fortune.

    #1147026

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Amen

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