March 28, 2019 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1703601TheWizardParticipant
Before the haskala and before the Reform movement, were all Jews frum? At least frum in the sense of being a member of the same community and network of synagogues as all other local Jews. Obviously people did various aveiras, usually privately, but presumably they weren’t publicly affiliated with a group that defined itself as sinners of specific aveiras.
Before the haskala, the local rabbis were deputized by the national governments as having authority over their Jewish communities. They had legal force. The rabbinical authorities could even penalize a Jew for violating Jewish law. As such, it would appear to be quite difficult for anyone to rise against the rabbinical establishment.March 28, 2019 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1703622Yabia OmerParticipant
No they were not all frum. That is why the Torah talks about Mekoshesh etzim Beshabbat, etc. etc. The Torah knew that this could happen in all generations.March 28, 2019 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1703629lakewhutParticipant
Jews were more traditional, but there were a lot of ignorant Jews. There were periods of messianic Jews. Jews in Germany were more assimilated than Jews who lived in ghettos in the pale of settlement – parts of present day Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania. Even the Jews who were Maskilim or hellinists didn’t imtermarry at a high rate, if at all. In Germany, France, England, intermarriage was more common.March 28, 2019 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1703653zahavasdadParticipant
Before the haskala there was no such thing as a secular jews. Most jews who didnt belive or want to be part of the community converted to other relgionsMarch 28, 2019 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1703663akupermaParticipant
There were always people “off the derekh” but usually they converted to Christianity (remember the status of Jews in most countries was similar to the status of Blacks under “Jim Crow”, so if one isn’t going to bother being frum, why not convert and immediately get full civil rights). Also remember that pre-haskalah every country had “personal law” at least for domestic relations, so as long as one didn’t convert, a non-frum Jew was subject to Beis Din in all matters of family status and inheritance, and could be penalized for being off the derekh. — There was always wide diversity among frum Jews, as there is today, with arguments among kashrus just like we have today. The jokes that all Jews need at least two shuls (“one to go to, and one to refuse to go to”) are pre-haskallah. But individuals who openly rejected halacha would usually also choose to convert and would not be seen as part of the frum community.March 28, 2019 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1703666zahavasdadParticipant
FYI intermarriage and conversion was alot more common that you were lead to belive
A couple of famous people who were converted or decended from converts. Benjamin Disraeli and NostradamusMarch 28, 2019 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1704497JosephParticipant
Before the haskala the entire organized Jewish community was what today is called Orthodox. Of course then they didn’t have a name since there was nothing else.March 28, 2019 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1704511ModernMisnagedParticipant
@TheWizard: “As such, it would appear to be quite difficult for anyone to rise against the rabbinical establishment”. Actually, the Chasidim did so quite successfully.March 28, 2019 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1704530JosephParticipant
MM: That’s incorrect both historically and factually. The rabbinical establishment didn’t oppose their founding. Decades later the establishment in Lithuania came out opposed. But that was long after the Chasidim were already established and were effectively already part of the rabbinical establishment.March 28, 2019 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1704544☕️coffee addictParticipant
Of course not
In the times of the 2nd בית המקדש there were tzedukim, baryonim, and Chaverim (תלמידי חכמים)March 28, 2019 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1704549ModernMisnagedParticipant
@Joseph, “MM: That’s incorrect both historically and factually. The rabbinical establishment didn’t oppose their founding. Decades later the establishment in Lithuania came out opposed. But that was long after the Chasidim were already established and were effectively already part of the rabbinical establishment.” Right. There were put in Cherem AFTER they were firmly grounded. Right, right…
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