December 16, 2014 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #614482kfbParticipant
I had a friend over for Shabbos with his wife and 2 yr old boy. Everytime his son would touch a muktzah toy, my friend would say nicely don’t touch it, it’s muktzah… My son is 2.5 yrs old and he does all of our muktzah needs for us, like turning on the lights and turning off the AC if it’s too cold… What is the appropriate age to teach your kid about shabbos? Even if I told my son don’t touch because it’s muktzah, he’d have no idea what I’m talking about. He does know he can’t watch mickey mouse on Shabbos though. That’s as far as I’ll go.December 16, 2014 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1048236Patur Aval AssurParticipant
You can start by telling him Orach Chaim 308:3:
???: ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???December 16, 2014 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1048237zahavasdadParticipant
I dont have an answer for you, but I can say the following DONT tell a toddler constantly NO especially with their favorite toy, If you constantly tell a toddler that NO they cant play with their favorite toy, your chinuch might backfire and they will learn to hate shabbos pretty quicklyDecember 17, 2014 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1048238nfgo3Member
It seems that the opening poster has already taught his 2.5 year old son how to be a Shabbos goy. I would guess the child has already learned something about Shabbos, but what he has learned is wrong.December 17, 2014 3:39 am at 3:39 am #1048239farrockgrandmaParticipant
Hmmm. Let me see, this was many years ago, but I made sure that we had the old time toys without the bells and whistles, and that’s what was out for the kids to play with on Shabbos. Meals, family time, table settings, kiddush, walking to shul (even if they go just for the last 1/2 hour) – the day is different in so many ways, children are learning about Shabbos very early.December 17, 2014 3:50 am at 3:50 am #1048240yaakov doeParticipant
His question should be “at what age do you stop using your child as a Shabbos goy? There’s nothing wrong with a non Jew being a Shabbos goy as Elvis Pressley and Colin Powell were, but it’s not a fitting job for a Jewish child.December 17, 2014 3:55 am at 3:55 am #1048241shulchanhashalemMember
The MB says that if you tell your son to do anything (even a day old baby by Remiza) you are ???? a ??? because it says ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????. Regarding teaching them it always says when they reach Chinuch which according to most views is at 6 years old (certainly regarding a ????? their is no reason to be ?????). This is also brought down in somewhat in Simin 343 and also see the Shone Halachos by Reb Chaim at the end of Simin 344 for more references.December 17, 2014 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1048242☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
(Exception regardless of decision for a d’var halocho, please?)
Source used: Children in Halacha by Rabbi Simcha Bunim Cohen.
Chinuch for not doing aveiros begins at an earlier
age than chinuch for doing mitzvos does.
The stage of chinuch in negative mitzvos is reached when
the child can be taught that something is forbidden,
that is, they will not merely stop now only to do it
again later (Mishna Berura, siman 343, se’if koton 3, b’shem “Acharonim”).
Rabbi Cohen says the stage is generally reached
at approximately four years of age (it varies).
(Thus far from CiH pages 7-8.)
According to this, you and your friend are not obligated
to teach your sons about muktzeh. (Whether it is a good idea
to start teaching muktzeh before you have an obligation to
is a question which it is not for me to answer.)
In addition to the requirement of chinuch, there is another Shabbos law regarding children. The Torah states (Shemos 20:10):
[v’gomer] ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????, Do not perform any labor, neither you nor your son nor your daughter…
We learn from this that parents must not allow their children
to perform any melachah (forbidden act) on Shabbos. If a child does a melachah because he realizes that it will be beneficial to the parent, even if the parent does not instruct the child to do it, the parent is obligated to stop the child from doing so.
Since this Torah prohibition, unrelated to the law of chinuch, is part of the parent’s own Shabbos observance, it applies even to children who are below chinuch age.
Thus, the issue of chinuch and its appropriate age is relevant in regard to Shabbos prohibitions only when a child wishes to do a forbidden act for his (or her) own benefit. A parent whose child wishes to perform labor for the parent’s benefit must prevent the child from doing so, regardless of the child’s age.
It should be noted that if a child did melachah for his parents or strangers, they are forbidden to derive benefit from that melachah (pages 66-7, emphasis added).
I’m tired of typing this up, so for permissible ways to have a child below the age of chinuch perform melacha, see the rest of Chapter 12.
(You are never allowed to let him knowingly
do something that benefits you, though.)December 17, 2014 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1048243KPM6Member
If the light is on in a room, it is preferable to hold up a baby in the area of the switch, who will play/shut off the light, over asking a shabbos goy.December 17, 2014 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1048244☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
You may even put their hand on the switch, so long as the child does not understand that his action benefits you.December 17, 2014 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1048245barlevParticipant
Halach I don’t know, but a kid that is ???? ??? has an effect on his ????. I would refrain from using a Jewish kid to turn lights off,December 17, 2014 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1048246chush biroishoyMember
You’re not mchayev to stop your child from doing milacha but can’t get him to be your Shabbos goyDecember 17, 2014 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #1048247LogicianParticipant
Barlev – you don’t know halacha, yet you know what affects neshamos – hmn…
The halacha is clearly not like you – using a young child in a permissible manner is preferable to a shabbos goy.December 19, 2014 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1048248my own kind of jewParticipant
I would say, if we’re talking about “preferable things” that it would be “preferable:” to not have a “Shabbos Goy” at all.
Or is it perfectly fine and dandy for me to leave the TV on all Shabbos to the sports channel so I can watch the game?
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