What defines a messed up school?

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  • #611727

    Zushy
    Member

    Like most people here i went to two schools, elementary and high.

    The elemtary school i was in was a more old style school, with a high standard in both hebrew and secular studies, a fulle equipped qymnasium… One could not enter or leave the building during shool hours without riniging on a bell and the secretary opening the gate. The school was generally run with discipline etc…

    The school was also involved in english life – i.e. they celebrated 8 may as the v-day on which WWII was won etc..

    The place had one “drawback” for a couple fo years they had a rather interesting fellow as principal. The boys were petrified of him, he was trict and dominating, and he had a couple of bees in his bonnet, one being attaching too much importance to the state of the school building, and ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? he would confiscate the childrens shoes. He was not from a yeshiva nackground, i doubt he would have been able to teach sixth grade gemoro without serious preparation.

    .

    The hich school i went to however, was yeshivish. secular studies were left for the end of the afternoon, everyone came and went as they pleased. The menahel was an alumni of ne the choshuve yeshivos in e”y, and gave chaburois in a local yeshiva too, but there was no discipline. Oh, and we were encouraged to get involved in yeshivish politics.

    The result was that “bohcurim” came out with little self discipline, not much hebrew or secular studies….

    In response for someone calling my elementary school a messed up p,ace, i would like to know which of the two schools was more messed up

    #998301

    TheGoq
    Participant

    One where the janitors are on strike.

    #998302

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Stockholm syndrome.

    #998303

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: You’re saying that all people who went to Yeshivish high schools are actually insane? Or maybe you’re just projecting. 😛

    #998304

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, I’m saying she doesn’t think her clearly abusive elementary school was messed up because of the stockholm syndrome

    #998305

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    Haven’t checked in here for a long time but Hey, thye told me that my kid’s school was up for debate.

    Zushy, i’m behind you. One punishment doesn’t define a school as messed up. Hefkeirus does.

    Anyway, the elemantary school seems to have produced a number of yeshiva world posters over time – so it must have been alright.

    #998306

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I taught for one semester in a yeshivish school.

    The kids were abusive, cruel, and the worst behaved I ever seen. Ii went to public schools my entire life, and never once saw anything like this in my life.

    #998307

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    Zushy, sorry didn’t fully understand you. On 8 May they didn’t wear shoes. Did they also sit on the floor and say ?????

    #998308

    rebdoniel- I’d assume you taught secular subjects, which came after a long day of hebrew. Did you ever try to teach public school children in the after school tutoring program? It’s sort of the same experience, but much much worse.

    #998309

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Yes, I taught social studies. I went to public school, and went to after school, when I was a kid.

    No kids pulled the stunts that the boys in that yeshiva pulled. OTOH, I went to schools for the gifted and talented.

    #998310

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I would consider a school messed up if they hired incompetent, unbalanced teachers.

    Even if the teacher thought he/she was G-d’s gift to mankind.

    #998311

    fkelly
    Member

    And you went to school years ago.

    #998312

    RR44
    Participant

    There is nothing like hearing that your old school is featured in the yeshiva world coffee room.

    Popa Bar abba, STOCKHOLM SYNDROME is when an abused person starts to look as an abuser as his saviour, normally when he associates strong emotional feeelings to their relationships. MATURITY is when a person recgonises the abuse for what it is, and nonetheless sees the entire picture.

    #998313

    RR44
    Participant

    Can someone explain to me how to write a message under my name.

    If someone can do it for me, please write “I’m in my socks because the menahel took my shoes away”

    #998314

    notasheep
    Member

    You have to be awarded that special honour by one of the mods.

    As to this thread, a messed up school is one where children come out with lack of disciple and general respect, or any kind of responsibility. Also where the staff are incompetent at discipline and teaching in general. The first school may have been strict, and the no-shoes may have been over the line but if the kids came out knowing something worthwhile and with respect for their elders then that can only be a good thing. Unfortunately the chutzpa level in many yeshivish schools today is way out of hand.

    #998315

    RR44
    Participant

    Whoever arranged the wrting under my name, thanks very much, i appreciate it.

    Anytime – 29

    #998316

    RR44
    Participant

    i heard that in a certain chassidus they don’t have haircuts from rosh hashana until parshas mikeits, and if a kid messes up in school, they forcinly shave his hair on zero.

    I sure hope it’s not true. If it is true it is a whole new low in school punishments.

    #998317

    LevAryeh
    Member

    Big deal. When I was in school they made us clean toilets as a punishment. When we were 8.

    #998318

    Zushy
    Member

    I sure hope your story isn’t true. It’s really disgusting to humiliate a kid that way. Also i think school;s discipline should be limited to school time, anything that goes out of the school is overstepping the boundaries.

    One of my nephews in a chasiddishe school, where if they come in sneakers they have to take them off for davvening. I don;t think it is such a bad idea by itself, since it teaches them ideas of kovoid hateffila.

    It was a bit not fair to my nephew, because he misplaced his shoes, and he doesn;t have shabbos shoes, [the cause for another thread on YWN], and after a couple of days the rebbi took away his shoes for a recess too.

    #998319

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If students are unhappy as a result o attending.

    #998320

    RR44
    Participant

    Reb yid +1.

    Couldn’t have expressed it better myself.

    Are you a mechanech by ay chance?

    #998321

    WIY
    Member

    A messed up school is one that cares more about their image than what Hashem wants for these little precious neshamos. A messed up school is a school where if there’s a problem either a kid is being bullied or there’s an issue with the Rebbe or Morah and a parent calls up the school doesn’t handle the problem but just tells the parent they will to get them off their back.

    #998322

    RR44
    Participant

    WIY

    ??? ??????

    #998323

    RR44
    Participant

    IN london or manchester a messed up school is one where they encourage or discourage using the local eiruv. depends who you ask,

    #998325

    A messed up school would be my elementary school. No money, so desperate for teachers that many were Christians (they had to wear skirts and tzniyus skirts….the girls)The teachers couldn’t control a class of only 12 girls…I mean I don’t think I learned ANYTHING in school till this year…..half of or classes were a joke. Either we’d put on music and dance or everyone would play on their ipods and text under their desks…..

    #998326

    twisted
    Participant

    I am a product of a suburban day school. I very nearly missed turning out as a sociopath because I am baruch Hashem resilient by nature. There was no concept of “off the derech” back then but 90% came in that way and left that way.They were not very careful about the quality of teachers, nor very competent in furthering their stated intent.

    #998327

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Have you named yourself after it?

    #998328

    MY MEMORIES OF SCHOOL involve a case when two boys had a fight in class, with the rebbi in attendance. One of the boys lost his temper and went to call the principal. When the principal came he asked the rebbi what had happened so the guy lied and said that he wasn’t watching. The kid told the rebbi “But you saw” So the principal told the kid to apologize for not addressing the rebbi with respect. I mean, how do you respect a man who obviously has no sense of responsibilty? There were a couple of similar stories too.

    .

    My son’s school on the other hand seems to have good responsible and warm rebbe’im. Beleive it or not, my son was always made to remove his shoes a couple of times in school, sometimes for wearing sneakers for tefillos [although you’re allowed to wear sneakers on sunday, so i am unsure how it can teach kovoid hatefilla,] once for leavingthe school premises without permission etc.. It’s not done regalrly.

    When we brought the issue with my son;s rebbi,he told us “nothing will happen to your son spending time in a heated carpeted classroom in socks. Soething will happen if we allow alll the schoool rules to be hefker.” And you know something, he was right.

    #998329

    fkelly
    Member

    Twisted- why would the school turn you into a sociopath? Are the other 90% sociopaths?

    #1610028

    RR44
    Participant

    Bump

    #1610193

    1
    Participant

    When the school ignores a problem and makes believe everything is going well.

    #1610188

    The little I know
    Participant

    A Yeshiva is a medium to provide chinuch to our children. Chinuch does not mean control, nor does it mean discipline. I would expect that a yeshiva prepares a child for a lifetine of Avodas Hashem and Ahavas Hashem. Anything else cannot be considered chinuch. Punishments are not chinuch. they are control. A bit of that is required in a system that places too many talmidim under the responsibility of a single rebbe or teacher. But when it becomes the main thing, there is a disaster.

    A true rebbe is described in Chazal quite often, and is seldom detected in today’s yeshivos. Here are examples:

    המלמד בן חבירו תורה כאילו ילדו. The meforshim are nearly unanimous in explaining this as a responsibility, not a merit. Does the rebbe love the talmid as a father would love a child? This does not mean that any given yeshiva should have one rebbe who fits this. It is a requirement of every single rebbe. One incapable if this is disqualified.

    יהי כבוד תלמידך חביב עליך כשלך. This Mishna is not less precious than any other. Yet, the dignity of the talmid is seldom a consideration. I have witnessed rampant shaming and degrading of talmidim. This is plainly ossur. A rebbe incapable of fulfilling the mandate of this mishna should seek another career.

    The image of a yeshiva is not unimportant, nor is its financial stability. Talmidim, by definition, are minors. It is expected that the behavior of the masses will never achieve perfection. As soon as a yeshiva begins to address their reputation, we begin to witness a distraction to the mission. What’s the mission? Just listen to how they describe the yeshiva as a public institution that promotes Torah and Yiras Shomayim and accomplishes so much for Klal Yisroel. Housing hundreds of talmidim is not the yardstick for being a public asset. Refraining from rejecting talmidim is.

    Rules in yeshiva are sadly designed for the convenience of the yeshiva, not the benefit of the talmidim. There must be decorum, and hefkeirus and chaos are most destructive. But a serious, self-critical assessment must be made if the true mission is the guide.

    Financial matters relate to the yeshiva office and budget, not the individual talmid. Failure to keep tuition balances up to date are sometimes poor money management by parents, who might prioritize other expenses to those of their kids’ chinuch. More often, it is the result of hardship. There are yeshivos that work with parents and assist them in meeting their obligations. This includes negotiating the contracts, the schedule for payments, and even volunteering to assist the yeshiva in other functions to offset some of the obligations. Many don’t, and simply wield the stick of denying admission to the building because of outstanding tuition balances. This is horribly destructive, and is antithetical to several of the values that are part of the mission of chinuch. This should not be taken to minimize the pressures of the yeshiva to meet its obligations, bills, wages, etc. But there are ways. The rejection of a talmid is tantamount to murder. The parent who fails to pay tuition might be faulted, but the innocent child becomes the victim. That’s unacceptable.

    I can go on and on. But I think some of the issues here point to what is messed up. And I cannot find the glimmer of hope, save that of Moshiach, who will bring about an upheaval of everything. במהרה בימינו.

    #1807201

    RR44
    Participant

    hi everyone. Been missing you guys.

    Bump1!!!

    What happened to the shoe confiscation threads? how do I find them?

    #1807212

    WOW memories. Aw 15 year old me had such a cute response to this thread.

    #1808304

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What defines a messed up school?

    Any school that would allow me on the grounds.

    The Wolf

    #1808376

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It should be ואהבת – שתהי שם שמים מתאהב על ידך the school should create students through whom Hashem will be beloved. If this does not occur, the school is messed up. The students should be examplary such that those seeing them will say, I also wanr to sent my child to this school.

    #1808380

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Any school that focuses on the money and not the avoda Hakodesh of chinuch of Torah children is a messed up school and will not be matzliach from Hashem. A school is not a business that someone invests in and Mrs profit off each child that goes to his school. It is a building of kodesh kodoshim with unlimited reward for the future directly from Hashem and for anyone that helps support Torah school or Mesivta etc…

    Best invest you can make in your life is investing in tzedaka/charity it’s an internal investment that can’t go bad and you take with you forever. All of a person’s physical money is worthless to him after you leave to the olam Haemes. Tzedaka/charity you keep forever and take with you for all eternity.

    #1808399

    The little I know
    Participant

    Sam:

    I agree with you. As someone who does not own or run a school, I share your position. But the administrator and menahel of the school take a very different position. I understand them even though I disagree.

    #1808430

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Sure we all need to make a living and a school tons of employees to pay not just teachers but secretaries and janitors etc… BUT a frum Torah school is still based on raising children in chinuch-not on money-and that’s what should be making the decisions in the CEO of a school if something should or should not be done. Of course every school has their own daas Torah Rabbonim to turn to when it comes to serious halachic questions regarding if the school should or shouldn’t do something.

    But in a Torah school the difference between accepting or not accepting a child into YOUR OWNED SCHOOL should NEVER be based on if the person has or doesnt have money.

    #1808788

    LOTR92
    Participant

    a messed up school is a school that values money over their own needs, does not listen to the students or parents, and a school that allows a child to get bullied while turning a blind eye to his/her situation

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