October 22, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #592734frumladygitMember
There is a lot of hype and controversy today about the level of alcohol, consumed by a pregnant lady and its effect on the fetus.
New studies are suggesting that an occasional glass of wine may not injure the fetus.
I know culturally North Americans are very against pregnant women drinking at all, however in Europe it was generally normal to see a woman drinking or smoking.
My question is, long before Kedem grape juice, every pregnant Jewish Woman was probablly using Real Wine on Pesach for the 4 cups, no? And in the old old old days, like in the times of the Sanhedrin and such, the wine was supposedly super strong. So, my point is, where in Torah does it say to stay away from wine when you’re expecting?October 22, 2010 4:42 am at 4:42 am #703080commonsenseParticipant
i personally cannot stand the taste of wine, i would imagine that if the women had to drink wine they probably drank the minimum shiurim.October 22, 2010 4:44 am at 4:44 am #703081SacrilegeMember
Dont you know thing only become dangerous after a medical authority declares it as such?October 22, 2010 5:57 am at 5:57 am #703082real-briskerMember
maybe in the olden days there were alot of missOctober 22, 2010 9:21 am at 9:21 am #703083ZachKessinMember
In general they probably drank wine. Wine can’t go above about 13% alcohol by volume as that is the point that the yeast start to die.
However in those days most people watered the wine, only drunks drank wine straight up.
One should also note that until the last 100 or so years beer and wine were the only safe thing to drink. Water and milk had about a million pathogens. Food safety is one of the reasons that people live a lot longer now then 200 years ago.October 22, 2010 10:18 am at 10:18 am #703084bombmaniacParticipant
of course…because grape juice is a completely modern invention…please think before you post.October 22, 2010 10:39 am at 10:39 am #703085minyan galMember
There is probably nowhere in the Torah that says pregnant women should stay away from alcohol but there is also nothing in the Torah about looking both ways when you cross the street. One must use Torah teachings together with common sense and current knowledge. In Torah times nobody knew about fetal alcohol syndrome. It wasn’t even a disease with a name until a few years ago. Now we know quite a bit about it so it obviously makes sense to avoid alcohol and tobacco when pregnant. Medical knowledge expands at a rapid rate and as we learn more we can take more steps to protect our health – example: a few year ago there was no flu vaccine – now most of us are advised to be immunized. Times change. When I was pregnant – over 40 years ago, my ob/gyn was quite elderly. At my first appointment he told me that it was wonderful that I smoked because I would have a smaller baby and, therefore, an easier time. Can you just imagine any doctor saying such a thing today!October 22, 2010 10:41 am at 10:41 am #703086shlomozalmanMember
If women used to drink four cups of wine when pregnant, they were unaware that it is not a good idea. Remember that moern medicine is only about 100 years old.
Wine was “stronger” in the old days, but did not have more alcohol, there is a limit to how much percentage alcohol a wine can have. Till today, the “strength” of old time wine and the need to dilute is a subject of debate.October 22, 2010 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #703087MoqMember
Why does every simple question have to get personal? Firstly, Bombmaniac, his question is indeed valid. Ess HaBatzir was succos time (Chag HaAsif) and without modern refrigetation, presumably your choice was between drinking your grape juice or fermenting it into wine (points if someone gets in the interesting R’ Moshe about this).
I think Pesach time they takeh didn’t have grape juice.
And Bomb, even if someone doesn’t chas vchalilah think before they post, do you have to be obnoxious? Play nice.
But as to the OP’s question, if you use a min. shiur of a revis – of 3 oz, and drink only Rov , you’ve got only 1.6 Oz per cup. Of course, others hold even a cheekful suffices, and then you could drink only an oz (each individual is different). So over the entire four kosos, they only drank about five oz – nothing any OB would get excited over, – once a year! Kiddush, if you are being yotzeh – they had a sip.
Though the miscarriage rate was much higher then, as want infant and child mortality. Whatever we can do to prevent miscarriages, we certainly should do.October 22, 2010 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #703088theprof1Participant
Seems all of you must be under 40 or so. Nobody ever heard of raisin wine? You took regular raisins and soaked in plain water for several days. Don’t recall the exact halocho shiur, I think 5 days. The resulting liquid is a bona fide bore pri hagofen and if made kosher for pesach, can be used for kiddush and arba kosos. Back before the 60’s, many people made riaisn wine, or in yiddish called rozenke vein, because they simply could not afford regular wine. If a doctor tells you that you should not drink wine, or any alcoholic beverage, then you don’t. Not even for kiddush or arba kosos. You are oveir v’nishmartem es nahshoseichem and you havent been mekayeim the mitzva.October 22, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #703089apushatayidParticipant
Home made grape juice. Is it that difficult to add water and a little sugar to a cup of wine the way Kedem does it? Prior to the Tzelemer Rav Z’l, Rabbonim knew the proper proportion of wine/water too. Its not a modern technological breakthrough that allows us to enjoy grape juice.October 22, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #703090squeakParticipant
My question is, long before Kedem grape juice, every pregnant Jewish Woman was probablly using Real Wine on Pesach for the 4 cups, no?
Not necessarily. Until grape juice was invented, there was no wine.October 22, 2010 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #703091oomisParticipant
I would imagine that a pregnant woman drinking Seder wine would do exactly as I did without wine – fall asleep before the second kos.October 24, 2010 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #703092its_meMember
OP dont be silly. kedem grape juice has been around for so long, its even mentioned in the torah. ‘ vayita hashem eloikim gan-b’eden m’KEDEM…. (breishis perek beis pasuk ches)
the real question is what am yisroel did in the midbar without pomegranate ! i love that store! do you really think that they ate ONLY mon? and while we are talking about brand names and supermarkets, i wonder how r ahron kotler started the lakewood yeshive in lakewood before wawa existed . could you imagine?!October 24, 2010 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #703093lesschumrasParticipant
and 30 years ago you couldn’t see in a Beis Medrash because of the haze from all the cigarette smoke. Where in the Totah does it say to stop smoking? Sakanos Nefashos. Just because we didn’t know that something was bad for one’s health before doesn’t mean we don’t adapt based upon new informationOctober 24, 2010 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #703094oomisParticipant
vayita hashem eloikim gan-b’eden m’KEDEM…. “
That must be similar to the source for lechem mishneh on Shabbos, where it says in the lecha dodi, “Bo-ee Challah, bo-ee Challah…”October 24, 2010 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #703095apushatayidParticipant
Es asher tofu, efu. just like man, tofu will taste like anything you imagine.
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