October 30, 2016 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1189860
“The belief is that he is giving over the message he wants to give very effectively, unfortunately.”
This is something I actually don’t understand, so maybe the moderators can explain.
If someone were to post something neged haTorah, it would get deleted, right? Like if someone would post a liberal left wing post that went against the Yeshiva world’s values, it would be moderated and not even posted.
Well, we see here that there are extreme right wing views which can also be neged haTorah and quite dangerous and misleading.
Using the Torah to insult and put down women?? Using the Torah as a weapon for your misguided misogynistic views? Do you know what a chillul Hashem this makes for any person reading certain posts here that doesn’t have the knowledge that normative frum people chas vshalom don’t hold like that?
So why do those posts get approved? They are just as much neged haTorah!
Can someone explain?October 30, 2016 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1189861
Joseph, is your point that men and women have different roles (and possible even that woman’s role is “lower” although it’s debatable what that means exactly) or is your point to put down women?October 30, 2016 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1189863
lilmod, you’re quotation of my post is an accurate reflection of my intent (as well as effect, imho.) And not to put down c’v, merely to counter the popular but inaccurate narrative.
gofish, once again your comment does not remotely reflect any accurate description of my posts.
although it accurately reflects the way most people read themOctober 30, 2016 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1189864
mod in bold: disagreed.
tis your prerogativeOctober 30, 2016 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1189865
Thanks Joseph for clarifying!
I think that a lot of the misunderstandings here have to do with people’s starting points. Everyone starts off with things that are a given and things that aren’t and therefore understands things within that context.October 30, 2016 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1189866
“I think that a lot of the misunderstandings here have to do with people’s starting points. Everyone starts off with things that are a given and things that aren’t and therefore understands things within that context.”
No, I don’t think so. I don’t see how some of Joseph’s posts can be construed as anything but offensive.
Whatever his intentions are, it doesn’t matter when it comes to gauging the posts themselves. Some of his posts are downright disgusting and misrepresent what Chazal say.
Yes he may have good yet warped intentions, but in Judaism, the means don’t justify the ends.
my hope when approving his posts is that more posts like this will follow so that people who meet those views offline will know that there may not be truth to it all.October 30, 2016 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1189867
To clarify my last post:
women/girls nowadays are somewhat insecure about their role/position in Judaism, either because of bad experiences or because of the way things were taught or not taught or because of a girl’s inherent nature to be more passive/less arrogant.
When someone is starting off feeling that way, they will read things differently. I know that because I used to be that way.
If someone is coming from the starting point that it is obvious that women are people and should be shown respect and not put down, etc. they understand things (and expect to be understood) differently.
I think that is what is going on here. I have also seen this from other posts of Joseph’s where I think some misunderstood his intent.October 30, 2016 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1189868
“gofish, once again your comment does not remotely reflect any accurate description of my posts.”
Lol. You know, there are people who engage in verbal abuse with other people, and when called out on it, say exactly what you say.
There is no way for you to whitewash some of your posts. And the reason I’m responding instead of ignoring and shaking my head with pity, is so I shouldn’t be indirectly acquiescing with silence and that anyone reading these threads should know that your stand is not necessarily the correct one and may in fact be outright wrong.
You don’t have to bother responding to my post. We’ll probably just end up going in circles. I’ve said what I had to say, and I do hope that whatever insecurity is driving you on this women-degrading campaign will get healed and recovered. Good night.October 30, 2016 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1189869
gofish, that is your view based on your previously stated change in worldview to one of modern orthodoxy and your stated rejection and repulsion of traditional (chareidi) orthodoxy. Nothing I cited from Chazal can be objectively construed as offensive or misrepresentive. Indeed, it is important to note that not even once have you challenged any of the Mamrei Chazal I quoted or even purported to point out what allegedly is misrepresentive about any of them or otherwise even attempted to counter them with any alternative explanation that purportedly rejects any other explanation I might have posted.October 30, 2016 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1189871
Thank You lilmod.October 30, 2016 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1189873
You’re welcome. There was at least one other post which was deleted which is very unfortunate since I think it would have helped clarify matters for everyone.
Maybe I’ll try to rephrase it when I have a chance. Basic point was that I think everyone is misunderstanding everyone.October 30, 2016 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1189874Person1Member
Golfish: “We can say the same of all the many, many men in previous generation who did not know how to read or learn. The ameratzim, the poshute yidden who served Hashem with full hearts but very little knowledge. What about them?”
While I appreciate the intention, this comparison doesn’t actually do women justice. There have been many women much greater than this ameratzim you mention.
Any man has Mitva of learning torah and if he is Ameratz either he has far bellow average intelligence, or he has made some bad choices. In any case no matter how much he is justified for being ameratz, he still lacks something that’s very important for every jewish man to have.
Women on the other hand don’t have mitzva of learning torah and so their lack of knowladge says nothing about their Madreiga in avodas hashem.
And sorry for nitpicking.October 30, 2016 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1189875Person1Member
I stopped getting angry by Joseph once I realized he doesn’t actually believe any of the horrible messages he seems to express by his posts.
The reason he keeps bringing all these provocative (not sure if that’s the word) quotes is simply because they are provocative. He think that if a quote by Chazal gets people angry it must be because these people are influenced by the secular world. I’m not sure he actually has any idea what everyone is upset about.October 30, 2016 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1189876Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
Lilmod Ulilamed…. A canard is a duck.October 30, 2016 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1189887
Moderators, I just saw that you let one of my posts go through. Thank you for that.October 31, 2016 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1189888
Gofish, if you look at the rest of the thread that is quoted at the beginning of this thread, there are other sources quoted that present a very different point of view. I think it would be a good idea if someone could bring those quotes in here in order to present the more-balanced view you are looking for.October 31, 2016 1:56 am at 1:56 am #1189890
Mods- I have to say, I understand the logic you mentioned about letting Joe’s posts go through, but it really does seem like there’s a bit of a double standard/blindness to certain issues in letting through some posts and not others, especially as relate to women. If someone weren’t to respond to a Joseph post (and many people give up after a while), would you delete it after the fact? I’ve occasionally been that person to respond and respond and then give up, because I honestly have better things to do. It’s not other posters’ job to keep Joe in line. To be honest, it’s yours.
It’s hard to say from the perspective of a poster how the things you let through compare to those you don’t, as we’re not privy to the rejected posts. But if you’re letting through posts by people who have been dismissive of women to an absolutely absurd degree, whether Joseph from a “lomdishe” perspective or Health being just plain (apparently) inappropriate (which I’ve complained about in the past, and you’ve taken a post-by-post approach to deleting his stuff which is starting to feel not enough), then it raises the question of whether it really matters to you.
I hope this doesn’t sound too harsh, but while I’m not around so much anymore, what I do see here doesn’t make me too eager to return. (That in particular may not be a particular problem to anyone, but it seems as though some of the same things dissuading me are bothering other posters as well)
edited slightlyOctober 31, 2016 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1189891
gofish: “Do you know what a chillul Hashem this makes for any person reading certain posts here that doesn’t have the knowledge that normative frum people chas vshalom don’t hold like that?”
Thank you for clarifying that normative frum people do not hold to those views on women.
Moderators: Thank you for posting gofish’s comment because I have heard degrading comments in outside life, which have been hurtful to me as a woman.
LU: I appreciate that you mentioned that some women may be insecure about their role in Judaism. I’ve swayed closer and farther from Yiddishkeit in the past due to negative experiences with high status frum individuals. Ultimately I want a relationship with Hashem, which I believe surpasses my perceived role.
Thank you againOctober 31, 2016 3:52 am at 3:52 am #1189892
Writersoul – I think you should read the other posts on the thread that Joe quoted. It might give you a very different perspective regarding what his point was. And if you could also bring some of the quotes here in order to present a more well-rounded view of the topic of women in Judaism, I would very much appreciate it.October 31, 2016 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1189893
lul: What do you mean? I’m not talking about anything specific he said here (I’m honestly just skimming)- more of a systemic issue I’ve noticed in the five years (holy cow…) I’ve been here. I specifically brought up the issues with women because of points made by posters like gofish and litebrite, but Joe has a history of being deliberately incendiary which I think is a big part of all of this. And if mods are admitting that they find some of his posts problematic but are relying on poster damage control, then I think that’s an issue which is entirely separate from the actual hashkafic question about women. (And Health’s tantrums and deliberate trash talking of women- I don’t think I need to defend myself for criticizing that…)
I happen not to really agree with you on “if you explain the true role of women any girl would be satisfied” thing- I know many girls who aren’t, even after all those years of BY which according to many posters here do such a bang-up job of instilling those ideas and giving the lie to feminism- but I didn’t want to get into that discussion. I more wanted to raise issues with moderating policy. (And honestly, I had no idea whether my comment would actually be published… my last comment of the type wasn’t.)
Do not confuse “moderating policy” (as in ‘mods are admitting that they…’) and “how different mods handle subjective material differently”October 31, 2016 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1189895
Moderators – you see it’s not kidai to delete my posts, because Hashem makes sure they get seen anyhow :)! Actually, I see that the post she is referrring to did go through although when I checked before it had been deleted. Maybe the Ultimate Moderator is moderating your moderation?
Or maybe I changed my mind…October 31, 2016 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1189896Little FroggieParticipant
Writersoul, Lilmod Ulelamaid, Person1:
I see you are all relatively new to the CR. As they say: Welcome to the CR. Enjoy the ride!!! It’s all part of the fun!!October 31, 2016 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1189897
LF: Lol, I’ve been here five years, I just stopped posting so much within the past few years- but thank you for the good wishes (and right back atcha! 🙂 )October 31, 2016 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1189898
“Or maybe I changed my mind..” That clearly was not the case based on what you wrote before and have since deleted 🙂
Actually, that is exactly what happened. I chose to give writersoul’s post context.October 31, 2016 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1189899
We can ask a broader question. What do the men do in gan eden? Learn? Is there any source that says otherwise?October 31, 2016 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1189900
“Actually, that is exactly what happened. I chose to give writersoul’s post context.”
Maybe there is more than one Moderator at work here. But someone had written that he/she didn’t understand how writersoul could be commenting on a post that he/she had deleted. I don’t think that Writersoul has Ruach Hakodesh, so the post must have been published BEFORE she wrote her post.
Clearly the post had been deleted and then posted (by someone else) and THEN WriterSoul responded, and then the original Moderator (who had deleted the post) was questioning how Writer Soul could be commenting on a post he had deleted. If the same moderator chnaged his mind, I think he would have know about it.October 31, 2016 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1189901
Or it could have been posted, then deleted, then posted. Is that what happened?October 31, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1189902Little FroggieParticipant
Today’s commonly known as “The Day After”
(then the dust settles.. and again..)October 31, 2016 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1189904
lilmod ulelamaid: It sounds like your post was given a second chance after it complemented another’s post, and thus put it into context.
B”H you’re not being gaslighted chas v’shalom; Though I have personally seen a post posted in retrospect and wondered. I def can see how it could feel like that. Thanks for sharing your voice <3October 31, 2016 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1189905
lightbrite – Thanks. but still, no one has paid attention to it, which I am very sad about. I’m not sure what gaslighted means, but many of my posts were deleted. I had to be deliberately very vague in that post so they would let it go through.October 31, 2016 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1189906
Is it weird if I have no idea what particular post this is we’re referring to? I just glanced over the thread and I don’t THINK I see anything different than I saw yesterday…
If it helps, gaslighting is when someone bluffs you into believing a lie about yourself- they plant evidence and lie so that you second guess your own experiences.November 1, 2016 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1189907
writersoul – You are not seeing anything different than you saw yesterday. The post was there when you responded to it, and it is there now, but it had been deleted at some point either before that or in between.
We are talking about the post that you responded to. The moderators had deleted it at some point, but put it back because you responded to it.
I wish someone would pay attention to its contents, since the moderators won’t let me do so.
Thanks for the definition. I don’t think I have to worry about that.Boruch Hashem, I think I am self-confident enough not to let myself believe a lie about myself.November 1, 2016 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1189908Sam2Participant
gofish: I do not have time right now, but I hope that I can encourage you by saying that I can explain why every single one of Joseph’s sources is taken out of context and what the proper meaning is. And no, it’s not that women are jars of excrement.November 1, 2016 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1189909
Sam2 – +1 and if anyone would read the rest of that thread, there are some good explanations there, and I wish someone would copy & paste them here.
But if when you have time, you can bring your own explanations, that would be helpful as well.November 2, 2016 2:32 am at 2:32 am #1189910Sam2Participant
LU: Can you leave a list of the sources he cited here? Then I can get around to them sometime later this week, I hope.November 2, 2016 2:35 am at 2:35 am #1189911
the moderators won’t let me. You should be able to find them yourself. There’s a link near the beginning of this thread.November 2, 2016 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1189912
Come on chevra, let’s get back the main discussion.November 7, 2016 2:12 am at 2:12 am #1189913
What do women do in Gan Eden?
Hopefully speak the same language as everyone elseNovember 7, 2016 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1189914
lightbrite, and on this earth they don’t?November 7, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1189915
“What do women do in Gan Eden?”
There is absolutely no reason to assume that they do anything different than anyone else and it is absurd to think otherwise. I really thought the question was meant as a joke.
By the way, for those who asked about men who don’t learn or women who don’t learn, your cheilik in Olam Haba is not based on how much you learn. It is based on how many zchusim you have. Obviously Limud Torah is a tremendous zchus, but it is not the only one. There certainly can be people who have little learning but have a tremendous cheilik and vice versa.
Even as far as learning goes, it is not only about the amount of learning one does. It is also about the mesiras nefesh that went into that learning. Someone who is only able to learn a little bit but does so with mesiras nefesh may have more of a zchus (and more Gan Eden) than someone who learns more but with less mesiras nefesh.
Also, supporting someone else’s learning can count as Limud Torah. And support does not only refer to financial support.November 7, 2016 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1189916It is Time for TruthParticipant
“What do … do in Gan Eden?”
it’s in the ‘Harachamans’ of bentching in the Hagadah,November 7, 2016 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1189917golferParticipant
It is TfT, that is my absolute favorite Harachaman. Even in my fatigued bleary eyed state by the time I get there, those words always manage to get me to sit up straight and make sure I’m enunciating carefully.
As for what we really do there-
– Does anyone else know the story of the ba’al ha’agala who will always be going downhill? What we do up there has a lot to do with what we’re occupying our time with and where our thoughts are while we’re spending time down here…November 7, 2016 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1189918
It is Time for Truth: can you elaborate?November 8, 2016 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1189919
BigGolem: Based on some threads here, it feels like parallel conversations about perceived messages that may have not been said by the person one is responding to in his or her message.
…So yes in this earth and even in this language there are communication barriersNovember 8, 2016 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1189920
lightbrite – It says somewhere (not sure where, but I think it’s from Chazal) that women are an “am b’fnei atzmam” “a nation unto themselves”. I guess that’s the source of the idea that men and women are from different planets. Which explains the language differences.
Just so I shouldn’t be misunderstood: this is NOT to be taken as a negative statement about women! No one says that our Nation is inferior to theirs. Perhaps it’s better (at least in some ways).November 8, 2016 3:42 am at 3:42 am #1189921
My former Jewish Studies professor literally told the entire class that women are superior biologically. Because they generally have more body fat than men, that’s why so many women were able to survive the Holocaust.
Granted I dunno whether or not more women survived than men. If so, then also the cause of “why” may be a speculation or partially causative, perhaps.
lilmod ulelamaid: Language-wise… personally I did not take your message as saying anything less than neutral about women. Thanks for explaining on the record just in case 🙂November 8, 2016 3:50 am at 3:50 am #1189922
“lilmod ulelamaid: Language-wise… personally I did not take your message as saying anything less than neutral about women. Thanks for explaining on the record just in case :)”
Just wanted to be careful, since it’s been a sensitive topic lately, and you never know how people will read things 🙂November 8, 2016 4:03 am at 4:03 am #1189923
lightbrite: women are superior to men due to body fat? Seriously? If we’re going that route then men are superior. Men are on average taller and have more muscle mass.
Why are most sporting competitions gender segregated? Why aren’t leading feminists calling calling for men and women to compete as equals? Because few women would win.November 8, 2016 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1189924
BG- she was referring to the ability to survive not to the ability to win a sporting competition.November 8, 2016 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1189925SpunkMember
What do Jewish men and women do in Gan Eden?
They enjoy the closeness to Hashem that is the reward for building a relationship with Him throughout their years in this world (through fulfilling the mitzvos of the Torah in the way that applies to them). To me, the details of what that means is irrelevant. We’ll find out either way when we get there after 120 years.
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