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Lenny, 50/50 is an entirely non-Jewish concept. According to Halacha and Shulchan Aruch he only gives her the one-time kesuba payment. She also keeps anything she owned from prior to marrying him. Everything else halacha deems his property and ownership that he keeps after the marriage, including all income and property generated during the marriage.
Lenny1970 -“We were planning on a 50/50 split”
The only way you’ll get that amount is in a court of law.
Once you’re going to court, her lawyer will tell her to demand child support & alimony.
People like you – think that it’s a one time deal.
I’ve been fighting for over 6 years now!
Take my advice – do what you can to save your marriage!
“Is my counselor wrong? Is there anything in the ethics that say the counselor can’t try keeping marriages intact where one party just wants a divorce?”
There’s nothing ethically wrong with it, it’s just not generally how counseling/therapy works. A counselor/therapist might help you come to conclusions and make decisions on your own, but generally won’t give you straight advice or try to convince you one way or another.
Of course, there are different methods, and if your counselor said that’s how he works, then there’s nothing wrong with that.
Lenny, mediation is possible but voluntary. What is agreed to is whatever both spouses voluntary agree to. If there’s no agreement either party has the right to insist beis din determine the outcome. Beis Din can also rule based on their sense of a fair compromise if neither party objects in advance for beis din to rule on a compromise rather than pure halacha. Otherwise beis din uses pure Halacha to determine the outcome. Either party can insist beis din only use pure halacha to issue a verdict. The Halacha is what I described in my last comment. Both parties are required to accept the Halacha as ruled upon by beis din.
The more I read posts, the less I wonder why some marriages are ended
“Of course, there are different methods, and if your counselor said that’s how he works, then there’s nothing wrong with that.”
Meno, doesn’t this statement contradict the post you had written in a previous thread about how marriage therapy won’t work unless each side is willing to step back a bit?
There is such a thing as bad therapists and I had thought that was your point in the post before this.
If the therapist is starting out by saying his point is “to convince the other side” of something, wouldn’t that be considered bad therapy as it defeats the whole point of therapy? Isn’t the point of marriage therapy to try to work on your marriage, and doesn’t that entail trying to see what you can do differently and trying to understand why the other person feels the way they do and what you can do for them? Isn’t that what marriage is about?
Please clarify. Thanks so much.
ZD +1 sad but true
LU,
If an experienced therapist who was recommended by an experienced Rav said that’s the way he works, I don’t feel it’s my place, nor do I have the audacity, to say that he’s doing it wrong.
Also in this case, where the wife only agreed to five sessions, it’s possible that a conventional approach won’t work, so maybe something a bit more aggressive would be better.
Lenny the reason I told you to go to the Rabbi from Bais HoRa is that both you and your wife have experience with him and he is a good mediator as he got your wife to go to counseling. The $50,000-$75,000 is a one time payment for the Kesobah (marriage contract).Splitting assets 50-50 is how the Civil Court does it. But if you both agree on financial matters, custody and child support as long as it’s reasonable the Civil Court Judge will sign off on it.
Your wife needs your consent for the Get. You need her consent in the custody and financial matters. If an agreement is made, you need to authorize a Get, which is to be put in escrow until after a civil court divorce is approved according to the term agreed. Give the get before the civil divorce is finalized and your wife can ask the judge for a 50-50 split alimony and child support at higher levels then agreed upon.
Hatzlacha! glad you are approaching things with an open mind.
Exactly as it sounds it means you were refused.
Lock her in the room so she has to talk ti you before you to let her out.
The real solution is simple, as the rav you asked and most people here have said. Give her a get and get on with your life. I. Getting the sense that she isn’t interested in working on your marriage no amount of therapy can fix that. She may be wrong that isn’t the point. For your own sake though move on
Tznius & Ubiqutin +1.
Lenny, I thought the counselor said that you need individual counseling. Why don’t you ask him what you should do?
Lenny1970 -“She’s threatened to just take her case to the Beis Din to have them order me to give her a Get. I think I’m going to let her threat play out and see what happens. I don’t believe the Beis Din would order me to giver her a Get. In which case we can then go to marriage counseling and she’ll take it seriously; at least that’s my hope”
They never order a Get, unless it’s a dire situation.
It sounds like that you both need your own counseling and then you should both go for marriage therapy, if it’s still needed!
Don’t listen to the posters here – they don’t know what they’re talking about!
How do you know she isn’t boycotting marriage therapy becase you haven’t started individual therapy? I think you should have jumped to do whatever you can to show you are invested.
I also think she sounds like she is acting like a sore loser – boycotting therapy because she didn’t get her way.
Whichever way is the truth – she doesn’t sound like a team player. Even if she’s wrong, there’s nobody there to work with. I have a friend who did this to her husband for a year until he moved out. She wasn’t right, but she still “won” because you cannot have a marriage with one person.
Lenny, you had originally written as follows: “Counselor wants me in individual counseling; so maybe I have problems I’m not aware of”
It sounds like he does think that you need individual therapy. And in any case, wouldn’t it make more sense to ask him what to do than to ask the anonymous posters here? You obviously need help figuring out what to do with this situation – wouldn’t he be the best person to ask? (and/or any of the Rabbanim you’ve been discussing this with)
Lenny, I understand. And I think the therapist and/or Rabbanim would be in the best position to advise you what to do.
I think you’re making a mistake. Which beis din is used is far more important than you imagine. The second rov I mentioned above, aside from being a shalom bayis expert advice giver, is also an expert on butei dinim that will be more invaluable to you than you imagine. At least call him.
Lenny1970 -“I’m not doing the individual until “real” marriage counseling starts. I know some may say why not do individual. For me, it would be a waste of $150/hr.”
I’m divorced and the other posters don’t know what they’re talking about.
Don’t be an Ackstion – go for therapy first and ask her to go for her own therapy. Then you can both go for marital therapy.
“Heath, yourself and others have said a beis din won’t order me to write a get. That’s what I find most puzzling. If this is indeed the case, and it’s also what our sheila rabbi said, then why is she threatening me with this action?”
She doesn’t know what Bais Din will do, and she needs to be pushed into therapy!
Health
“I’m divorced and the other posters don’t know what they’re talking about.”
wouldnt that make you the worst person to give advice to this fellow?
whatever you tried didnt work. though it may very well have been for the best.
Lenny you have a Rabbi who said to give a Get, the counselor you met said he can “guaranty it would not work, but he would not be able to see us because it would be unethical for him to take our money if he knew nothing good could come out of it.”
Health said “do what you can to save your marriage!” And I do agree with him fully. You should do everything you can, but if she wont even talk to you or take counselling seriously, what more can you do?
“the easy thing w/be to cave in & give her a Get. I’m not like that. I’m hoping she has a change of heart if/when the Beis Din shoots down her request to demand me to give her a Get.”
forgive me, but How long do you see yourself holding out hoping for “a change of heart”? A month? a year? a decade? the rest of your lives?
Ubiq -“whatever you tried didnt work”
Not necessarily because it couldn’t work. But very unlikely that he is in the same situation as I was!
“Health said “do what you can to save your marriage!” And I do agree with him fully. You should do everything you can, but if she wont even talk to you or take counselling seriously, what more can you do?”
Usually when you go to Bais Din, they will try to push the couple into therapy before they do anything!
One of the reasons, is because they want the therapist’s input before any decision!
Lenny listen to Joseph you need to choose a Bais Din that is impartial. I think she is going to claim abuse and hopes they will accept it. If you agree to her Bais Din they may agree with her. I think she is trying to pressure you into giving a get as that is the only option. You need to speak to a divorce lawyer and find out whether the fact that she is not cooperating with the marriage counselor is grounds to dismiss the case or punish her in some other way.
How are the children handling this breakup? I hope you are not using them as an intermediaries to communicate with your wife.
As I said previously, go back to the Rav from Bais HoRa tell him you thinking of giving a get but you need to know what the financial obligation and custody will be. The Rav can negotiate for you a better settlement then you would get in Civil Court. Also you wouldn’t be paying for two lawyer to litigate the divorce at $200.00 + per hour.
Wishing you the best Good Shabbos
“if my wife said if I go for individual counseling was a condition to staying married, then yes, i would do so, even if I thought it was stupid. It wouldn’t make a difference to her either way.”
But maybe it would make a difference to you- maybe you need the therapy to uncover issues that you don’t realize that you have. Maybe it will help you save the marriage, maybe not. But it will make you a better person. And if this marriage ends up in a divorce, maybe it will help you pull yourself together so you can consider having a future.
Lenny1970 -“health, what does “Ackstion” mean. I googled & can’t locate. thanks”
It’s Yiddish for stubborn.
“Abba S., our gameplan was going to be the drafting of a marital settlement agreement (MSA) in Mediation. But you’re saying to go to the Bais Horaah of Lakewood to write up the MSA? I didn’t know they could do that.”
You obviously very naive when comes to getting divorced.
The the whole way a Bais Horaah (ie. Bais Din, plural – butei dinim)
is legally allowed – is because the parties involved sign a Mediation Agreement.
Let me just tell you a piece of advice – don’t go for mediation, whether in court or Bais Din, if you want to stay married.
First insist that we must try marital therapy before anything else!
Lenny, you are a blast from the past if you think that therapy is simply lying on a couch and venting. You and your wife have very old, long-standing problems with communication and solving your problems and other issues that you have not really mentioned but I am pretty sure exist. The purpose of therapy is to help you to understand how your old ways of dealing with things have not worked and to help you develop skills that will help you with future communications,with your wife and with other people as well. Individual therapy can help you in ways you don’t seem to understand. I would suggest you follow Mod-29’s recommendation and jump into therapy even if it is just to show your wife that you are working on your personal areas and are not forcing her into things she is not ready for yet. I believe that R’ Yisroel Salanter said that the only person in the world you can change is yourself. If you simply expect to change her mind about whether the two of you should stay married without doing some work yourself, you will probably not succeed. Show her that you’re serious about your end of things.
Lenny, but it does seem that you have a specific issue to work on- your marriage has failed, and you don’t understand why. Even if it can’t be saved because your wife has given up on it, at the very least it would be good to find out why so that you can move on.
Lenny1970,
Why do you want to stay married to this woman?
Joseph: “There are numerous cases brought in the Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch where when a spouse requests a divorce the Halacha is that the Beis Din denies the request and informs the petitioner to go back to living with their spouse despite their desire to divorce.”
This is a false statement. Find me even one case. You won’t be able to, because it doesn’t exist.
Sam2: The easiest example (of many) is when the wife requests a divorce due to a desire to marry someone else she became acquainted with. This is clearly spelled out; no idea how you missed it. But there’s “one case” for your education. This is mentioned in the Mishna in Nedarim 90b, if I recall the maare makom, as well as in Shulchan Aruch.
Avram in MD- Why do you want to stay married to this woman?
He feels in either case he is going to be unhappy. If he stays married his wife is going to make him miserable. If he is divorced he will also be miserable. So it’s better to be married and have a rich lifestyle and be miserable than be single, miserable with a poor lifestyle as his wife will get half his assets. At his age so close to retirement he will never earn enough to get back to the richer lifestyle.
Joseph: Sorry, by cases I thought you meant actual cases, not Halachos. Yes, there are Dinim brought down about what happens in specific potential situations, but there is no case brought down where it happens. Also, you are misunderstanding the Mishna in Nedarim.
I agree that divorces aren’t granted just because someone asks for it. I just think that you made up your claim that there are many cases in Gemara and Shulchan Aruch where what you claim happens.
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