March 30, 2018 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1501930
thanks for not asking your same “question” a third year in a row.
What I have been wondering is what if chometz gets damaged.
I sell my 100,000 warehouse of chmoetz to the goy.
He puts down a down payment say $5
After PEsach I come to collect the remaining $999,995.
He defaults and I collect my chometz in place of the money he owes (of course if he wants he can pay the remaining 999,995 and keep the chometz if he so chooses, note: (again)I cannot force him to pay and keep the chometz)
The problem arises if Ch”v the warehouse burns down.
After PEsach I come to collect the remaining $999,995.
He no longer has chometz to give in lieu of money and now owes me nearly $100 K it seems doubtful that he would actually pay which calling into question the sincerity of the sale (its easy to say dont make him pay its a chilul Hashem and will cause problems, but its 100,000 in a general sale of course I would make him pay why shouldnt I here.)
Of course this doesnt actually invalidate the sale ch”v. since what he would do in a hypothetical scenario doesnt really matter, lemaashe he would owe the money even if I would not get it backMarch 30, 2018 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1501937
(he owes me 99,995 not 999,995)March 30, 2018 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1501939
thanks for not asking your same “question” a third year in a row.”
ubiq: I was counting on you this year. Thank you for obliging! 🙂
As far as the rest of your question, don’t the rabbonim doing the sale with the goy make the transaction legally binding under the local/national laws?March 30, 2018 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1501942BaltimoreMavenParticipant
I’m not sure why Joseph doesn’t just learn Gemora Pesachim and the Shulchan Aruch etc. I think he’s just trying to start a conversation. Everyone agrees that the whole mechiras chometz is a halachic trick. It is truly a ha’ar’oma. Bitul b’alma sagi – from a Torah perspective Bitul is sufficient. All the rest is d’Rabbonon. Don’t forget that we also rent the part of the house / business that the chometz is contained in.March 30, 2018 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1501947JJ2020Participant
I didn’t read the whole thread but I heard a Rav mention a sale and they specify the total value to be a certain dollar amount. So the got could pay that full amount and take the chometz. I suppose the Jew can demand it too. Unless someone can come up with a clause to get out of it that wouldn’t invalidate the sale.
Keep in mind your goy may not want to do business with you next pesach it you force him.
There may be an issue with say a pizza place that sells his chametz dough. Unlike a normal case where you would be happy to get the full value for your chametz. This pizza store owner does not want to sell his dough for a few bucks when motzei pesach he can sell the pizza and make a big profit. Probably they find a way to work around this or perhaps his intentions don’t matter.April 1, 2018 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1501979
“don’t the rabbonim doing the sale with the goy make the transaction legally binding under the local/national laws?”
Yes, and there is no question he halachicly owes me the money, and while I’m no lawyer I believe legally as well, exactly as you say.
My concern is twofold.
1) If lemaisah in such a situation I in all likelihood will not collect the money, doesnt that make the mechira appear to be a harama
Admittedly this is a far fetched scenario so it might not actually be a problem. And secondly maybe I’m wrong and a the Rav who facilitates the mechira would say absolutly go to beis din/court and get him to pay for HIS chometz that got destroyed. Somehow I doubt it,
2) Based on the above, it might be an issue of taking achriyus over his chometz given that there will be such a headache if it gets destoyed I’d be worried and perhaps even protective of his chometz.
Again, I’m not sure what would happen,
I guess my question is simply:
What do you think would happen after Pesach I want to get paid for the chometz I sold and that got destroyed. Do you think the Rav would tell me to go sue the goy for the money he owes me?April 1, 2018 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1501983
“I suppose the Jew can demand it too. ”
He cant. Read the thread.
I do like your pizza dough point thoughApril 2, 2018 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1502077ChaimyParticipant
If you have 100.000 inventory I would hope you had insurance. Can you collect the insurance if something happens to the warehouse and you sold the inventory to the goy?April 22, 2019 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1718048
Who else is thinking of not buying the chometz back from the goy?April 22, 2019 2:10 am at 2:10 am #1718055Avi KParticipant
1. One does not sell the utensils themselves. If you do you have to tovel them again after Pesach as they belonged to a goy.
2. While a goy is obligated in the sheva mitzvot (and some say all of the mishpatim) there is a machloket if they are also obligated in monetary halachot or if they can make up what they want.
3. The status of the sale in secular law is not necessarily relevant. Someone snitched to the Austrian government that the Jews did not pay the tax on contracts. The Emperor said that it was not a real contract but just something the Jews do for religious reasons. Someone then suggested that the contract was invalid because of dina d’malchuta dina. the Chatam Sofer said that it was still valid.(the
Chavat Yair however did mention this as a problem).April 22, 2019 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1718154
If anybody was thinking that, they’d be embarrassed to say that here since they’d be putting their ignorance on displayApril 22, 2019 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1718160
I’m not going to address individual posts because there are too many of them, but if you structure the sale so that if the buyer doesn’t pay it reverts then retroactively you owned chometz on Pesach. That is not the way it should be done, and not the way I have seen it done.
The sale is a 100% sale, and ideally should be structured so that even if the buyer never pays the chometz is still his, and he can be sued for the money. That is the way every sale I’ve witnessed has been done. And no, there is no guarantee that we will buy it back, but we can give him an informal assurance that if he doesn’t find a buyer in the next week we will find him one.
In the case of individual householders, of course we want to buy our former chometz back, because it would be inconvenient to have to go shopping to replace it. But in the case of a business, on the contrary, we would be delighted if he decided to take it all and pay for it.
The reason we buy it back is very simple — if we don’t, then next year we will not be able to find a goy willing to buy it from us.April 22, 2019 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1718162
And yes, if the chometz is destroyed during Pesach it is the new owner’s responsibility. He has to pay up, and we can absolutely sue him for it. That is why insurance was invented. The insurance policy transfers to the new owner, so if the stock is destroyed the insurance will pay him, and he can pay us. We can even put in the contract (though I haven’t noticed it done) that in case the stock is damaged before it can be appraised we will accept the insurance payout in lieu of an appraisal.
Also, if there’s an Arev Kablan then instead of suing the buyer in court we can sue the AK in beis din, where we know the verdict will go to us.April 22, 2019 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1718188
ubiq: There you go. Milhouse agrees with my underlying point.April 22, 2019 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1718170
“but if you structure the sale so that if the buyer doesn’t pay it reverts then retroactively you owned chometz on Pesach”
Incorrct, as has been explaind svral tims over several years in this thread
“That is the way every sale I’ve witnessed has been done”
Have a look at sample contracts, for example printed in kitzur.
“He has to pay up, and we can absolutely sue him for it.”
This seems addressed to me, but i explicitly said that already “Yes, and there is no question he halachicly owes me the money, and while I’m no lawyer I believe legally as well, exactly as you say.” So I’m not sure why you are repeating that.
You comment about Arav kablan, is EXACTLY to alleviate my concern, but its use is controversial and most (chabad being a notable exception do not use on)April 22, 2019 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1718231
To elaborate/ clarify, metaltalin are not acquired by kesef. If you go to a store, and but a loaf of bread on credit, it is yours 100%. Say it gets stolen from your car, it is your bread that was stolen bot the store owners you still owe him money.
If you default and never pay him, that diesnt change the fact that you still own it and owe him money (or the bread back).
Now usually a sale of bread is not structured in a way to allow giving the bread back. But mechiras chometz (like a mortgage on a house) is. The guy bought it it is 100% is completely no its and or buts.
After pesach je either pays what he owes, or gives HIS chometz backApril 22, 2019 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1718255Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
You don’t really sell the chometz and then buy it back; that’s just the conversational lashon we use. He gives you a down payment and then you repossess it when he fails to pay the full amount after Pesach. The concept of the goy saying “I’m keeping the chometz” is basically a fantasy dreamt up by people who don’t understand how it works.April 22, 2019 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1718269
Your first statement : “He gives you a down payment and then you repossess it when he fails to pay the full amount after Pesach. ” was spot on.
I believe there is a typo in your second though “The concept of the goy saying “I’m keeping the chometz” is basically a fantasy dreamt up by people who don’t understand how it works.”
As you correctly point out i your first statement if the goy were to pay the full amount after PEsach he would get to keep the chometz.
The “fantasy dreamt up by people who don’t understand how it works. is the reverse “thinking of not buying the chometz back from the goy” which as you correctly point out is hogwash, as thee is no “buying back”April 22, 2019 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1718328
May I also suggest that those who treat it as a ha’rama, or as less than a 100% legitimate sale, are the same ones who don’t sell actual chometz, whereas those who treat it absolutely seriously are the ones who do sell real chometz, because they’re completely confident in its validity.April 22, 2019 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1718327
ubiquitin, I said I have not gone through the whole discussion, so I’m addressing general points, not necessarily what any one person has written.April 22, 2019 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1718326
There absolutely is a buying back. I’ve seen it myself. The goy comes after Pesach and the rov reminds him that payment is due, and asks whether he’s found a buyer, or otherwise come up with the money. The goy says he has not, so the rov offers to buy it himself on behalf of the original owners, for a price slightly higher than the sale price, so he will make a profit. They make several different kinyonim just as they did on Erev Pesach (kesef, sudar, tekias kaf, signatures, drinking).April 22, 2019 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1718397Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“May I also suggest that those who treat it as a ha’rama, or as less than a 100% ”
No. People who have a minhag not to sell chometz gamor are not hashkafically opposed to machiras chometz. Even they don’t consider other peoples’ sold chometz gomur to be chometz sh’over alav pesach.
“There absolutely is a buying back. I’ve seen it myself.”
It seems like the process you’re describing is the same is what we’re saying. My only point is that I’m not a fan of the lashon “buying back.” The goy didn’t pay yet. It’s just semantics, but I think it leads to a lot of the mistakes people have made on this thread.April 22, 2019 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1718387
Millhouse overseen it too and checked with a few rabbonim.
All said there was no “buying back”
I can only guess different rabbonim have different procedures?
Though how dies your fav ensure that all sellers want their chametz back? What if Joseph sold with your rav and doesn’t want it back?April 25, 2019 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1719237
You made the rov a shliach to sell the chometz, and to buy it back after Pesach if it’s still available. If you don’t want to take possession of it you don’t have to, but you’re not getting any money.
Neville & Ubiquitin, first of all the repurchases I’ve seen absolutely were exactly that, the rov explicitly offered to buy the chometz and the goy agreed to sell, and they did all the kinyonim. But according to you, how is it that the goy walks away with a profit? How could he make a profit if he didn’t sell anything? If he is simply allowed to back out of the original purchase then he should be lucky to walk away without a loss? And yet he must make a profit, or else why would he agree to participate in this whole rigmarole in the first place?
This proves that what is happening is a genuine sale, followed by a genuine resale at a profit. The goy buys it in the first place, not for his own use but in the hope of flipping it at a profit. A week later he has not yet found a buyer, so we offer to be that buyer. That is all.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.