July 16, 2013 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #966359popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Ok, so your evidence proves that there are many women in law, and mine proves that they aren’t as good at it.
(The supreme court justices proves nothing, since they are chosen for diversity.)July 17, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #966360
Let us assume for a moment that you are correct, and that men edge out women in the very top echelons.
To return to the point we were discussing– namely, whether or not a woman can learn on equal footing with a man– your premise only suggests that the very top male scholars have no female equals. It does not prove that the vast majority, say 98%, of men do not have female counterparts who are equally capable of learning at their level.July 17, 2013 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #966361popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You are correct. And that would accord with the research that men’s intelligence has a fatter tail.July 17, 2013 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #966362
Talk to the Roshe Yeshiva about it.
“It does not prove that the vast majority, say 98%, of men do not have female counterparts who are equally capable of learning at their level.”
Where do you come up with 98%? I would say most upper level yeshivos, very few women would fit well in. It’s not only the learning level for basic aggadah in a gemara: but many other factors such as knowing when to move on to another topic and going deep into a maharsha, doing mental gymnastics that will turn your brain inside out, knowing your place and talking only when it is relevant etc. I have a cousin who is very bright and she is going to be a lawyer and I have many conversations about philosophy with her. She is such a great girl, but she would not fit in well in the yeshiva I am currently in. Thats not saying anything bad.July 17, 2013 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #966363Sam2Participant
PBA: I once heard someone making fun of high school girls learning. I asked him what he thought was wrong with a woman opening up a Gemara if she has nothing better do to with her time. He says to me, “Do you really think the Torah will be Miskayeim B’yisrael by Rebbetzin Kanievsky opening up a Gemara or by making sure that her husband was his tea when he wakes up to learn at 4 am?” So I responded to him, “Do you really think the Torah will be Miskayeim B’yisrael by you learning? Of course not. But we don’t leave learning only up to the G’dolei HaDor. Everyone, even if they won’t make a fundamental change in learning for generations, is still M’chuyav to learn. So what’s wrong with a girl learning if she has nothing better to do with her time?” I’m curious, Popa, what do you think of that interaction?July 17, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #966364ToiParticipant
migoo- though i am on your side in this discussion, your point is moot. had your cousin spent her last fiftenn years training for those mental gymnastics she would be as good as you, as per your svarah.July 17, 2013 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #966365
Toi: It’s funny you said that because my cousin went to a high school where they teach girls gemarah. I’m sorry, but I firmly believe that women have a need to beautify themselves, to talk about their feelings and social relationships and have less of an aptitude to spend all day on a Maharsha as apposed to most men. All my experience and knowledge confirm this. Plus, if everyone is learning in yeshivos all day, no one would do any chessed (not to say men should sit and learn all day and do no chessed). Whoever thinks that being a lawyer is comparable to learning in yeshiva obviously has done neither.July 17, 2013 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #966366ToiParticipant
i agree with you wholeheartedly. again, had she started ate age 9 or 10 like you did, maybe she’d be as good as you, even with all the shortcomings of being a female (sic-jk).July 17, 2013 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #966367
It doesn’t matter where your cousin went to high school. I don’t know of any yeshiva high school that teaches intensive Gemara to girls at the same level it does to boys. Anyway, boys also typically learn intensively with their fathers, and most frum fathers do not learn this way with their daughters.
Women can’t learn Gemara the way men can because they aren’t brought up to do so. They don’t have the skills or the resources, even if some (the type who become lawyers) do have the natural aptitude.
If you’re going to say that women can’t spend all day on a Maharsha because they need to “beautify themselves and talk about social relationships”, then you should also say that men can’t spend all day on a Maharsha either because they need to research the stock market and talk about last night’s Knicks game. It cuts both ways. There are always going to be distractions. A serious learner will buckle down and dissect a Maharsha regardless of what those distractions are.
The daily schedule of a lawyer is typically very different than the daily schedule of a full-time learner. But the intellectual challenges are very similar.July 17, 2013 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #966368🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
I firmly believe that women have a need to beautify themselves, to talk about their feelings and social relationships
You obviously never met me. You’d be surprised to see how different women can be from how you think they are…July 17, 2013 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #966369
jewishfeminist02: I’m sorry, but I disagree with everything you just said. Gamanit: I am sure there are many girls who do not feel the need to focus on their looks as much as others.
Anyway, it was nice chatting…..July 17, 2013 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #966370
Oh– you disagree with me? I had no idea! What a well-reasoned argument! #sarcasmJuly 17, 2013 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #966371
Ha, I said a guy would spend all day on a Maharsha, not on a jewishfeminist02 comment. But I wish you all the best in your learning and growth never the less. Be well….July 18, 2013 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #966372Rabbi PerfectMember
Toi- One doesn’t need to have started at a much younger age to be “equal” or whatever, (it definitely does help though) I am a ba’al teshuvah who started learning Gemarah at a MUCH later age than most of my peers in yeshiva, and I can say that B”H with HaShem’s Great help, I am able to match and even surpass many of them, (as well in other yeshivos, which I have attended, or which I occasionally step into to learn). It’s a matter of will, toil, and at the end of the day, Siyata D’Shmaya. That’s the truth. (having a good kop definitely helps a LOT though, because B”H I was blessed with a fair kop I’d say, and that’s what helped me throughout my progress)July 19, 2013 3:54 am at 3:54 am #966373rebdonielMember
How old were you when you began. And which yeshivos did you go to?
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