October 13, 2021 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2015494Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
Maybe it’s just perception, but doesn’t it seem like the UK is intentionally targeting Jews with regard to their healthcare and ethics “laws”? What is going on over there? Other than us, isn’t anyone over there in an uproar at these cases? Contrast this with the US, where I have taken care of in-patients for YEARS, resuscitated them a half dozen times…. done everything for them… I can barely remember ever Ethics Committee-ing someone into a DNR or DNI let alone to withdraw care. The only explanation I can fathom is that this is what happens when you’ve completely divorced the humanity, humility, and godliness from the practice of medicine. I get it, they don’t want to pay for taking care of that little girl, fine. But someone else WAS. Yet they cling to this ideology…. smh……What a terrible and godless system.October 13, 2021 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2015584akupermaParticipant
Socialize medicine, and that’s what you have. Health care rationing doesn’t work if individuals can go out of system. If the government decides some sort of care is not covered, in a socialist system, you are in effect ordered to be put to death. If the Republicans mess up in the next election, we’ll probably have the same system in the United States. We are one “blue wave” away from having “Death Panels” in America.October 13, 2021 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #2015653BaltimoreMavenParticipant
Maybe the message is from Above to make aliyah.October 13, 2021 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #2015705
CAD – “I can barely remember ever Ethics Committee-ing someone into a DNR or DNI let alone to withdraw care”
You must not be living in the New Age.
They are doing it here also.
It starting here also, but not so obvious.
What do you think Palliative care & Hospice care is all about?
I remember one time I was doing something in the ICU – 10 years ago – they pushed the family into it.
Then I saw this Hospice Nurse – all she wanted was to increase the Narcs right away. Probably that he/she should go ASAP.October 13, 2021 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2015740ujmParticipant
“Maybe the message is from Above to make aliyah.”
Maybe the message is from Above to daven and learn more and use less entertainment.October 13, 2021 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #20158092scentsParticipant
“ all she wanted was to increase the Narcs right away. Probably that he/she should go ASAP.”
Or maybe so the patient shouldn’t experience pain and get comfort care as they are nearing the end of their life.
At times even rabbonim allow patients to be under hospice care, there are organizations and rabbonim that deal with this.October 15, 2021 7:10 am at 7:10 am #2016363Zaphod BeeblebroxParticipant
I obviously am as outraged as the rest over this horrible incident. However it does raise the question: according to Halacha, are you required to do whatever it takes to extend the life of a patient even if you know for a fact that they are experiencing immense pain and there is no chance of recovery? What if the patient is lucid and is in so much pain specifically from the meds/machinery that he/she requests to be taken off them and be allowed to die naturally? Do we force them to stay on them against their will? And in the case of of a non lucid or comatose patient, where it’s causing them pain wouldn’t it be tzaar baalei chayim to keep them on? What are the gedarim? Again, I’m not talking about this specific case as it was proven that she was experiencing no pain at all. This is clearly just another sign that our world is just messed up beyond repairOctober 15, 2021 8:18 am at 8:18 am #20164082scentsParticipant
Before going into your core question with regards to extending ones life despite it being clear from a medical and scientific stance that there are no chances for long term recovery.
You mention pain, patients do not need to experience pain, it can and should be managed well. And can also include managing their anxiety as well.
With regards to resuscitation or supportive care for none viable patients, this is a complex halacha question and needs people that are knowledgeable with the medical and halacha reality and is usually dealt with on a case by case basis.
But in general, we value every moment of life even if the patient cannot enjoy life or fully function. It can also be that patients don’t have a right to end their lives or to refrain from being treated (this pertains to halacha, in general patients have autonomy and can decide on their own for or against treatment as long as they have complete mental capacity).
There are organizations that deal with these issues.October 15, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2016458
CAD -“smh……What a terrible and godless system”
You can say that about the US also.
I took an ethics class in College.
One of the main cases discussed was the case of Karen Ann Quinlan.
Did you ever hear about that case?
It was one of the first cases in the US where they removed a young patient from Life Support.
It was decided in the NJ Supreme Court:
“1. To discharge, with the thanks of the Court for his service, the present guardian of the person of Karen Quinlan, Thomas R. Curtin, Esquire, a member of the Bar and an officer of the court.
2. To appoint Joseph Quinlan as guardian of the person of Karen Quinlan with full power to make
decisions with regard to the identity of her treating physicians.”
At that time, the US government was opposed to withdrawing Life Support.
At that time – Most of the docs believed that once someone is on a Respirator – you don’t remove it.
Along came the father and fought it in court.
He eventually won in NJ Supreme Court.
What do you think nowadays – will most Medical personnel want to remove Life Support or Not?October 15, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2016469
2scents -“Or maybe so the patient shouldn’t experience pain and get comfort care as they are nearing the end of their life.”
You’re starting to sound like a Lib Leftist.
First of all, you’re making an assumption that medically that the patient couldn’t be stabilized.
It wasn’t my patient. I was part of a Cardiology team. I don’t even think that it was a Cardiology patient before Palliative care took over, but just different type of patient, in ICU.
Second, you should know better, when would anyone not give pain relief?!?
From my previous post:
” all she wanted was to increase the Narcs right away”.
Do you see the word – “Increase”?
Anybody who works in Medicine, like you claim, knows that giving Pain Relief is Standard of Care!
She obviously wanted him/her to have a Lethal Dose!
So stop second guessing my posts, and go answer the Simple question that I posed to you – regarding Not giving Steroids in Covid19.
This is another Case of Standard of Care, Not something from FLCCC or some other organization!October 19, 2021 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2018595Amil ZolaParticipant
Futile care laws were first instituted in TX by former Gov. Bush, they expanded to other states. Now there is a move to remove them in TX and CA (one other state as well, but I can remember which). Do you know if you live in a state with FC laws?
Having faced catastrophic illness personally ( myself and husband) it’s really important to have detailed advanced directives for adults. If you live in a state with electronic medical records these can directives can be included in your file and ‘pinned’.
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