What is mandated in NY for private schooling

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  • #615825
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As my thread was closed, I’m going to try to continue my thought process without mentioning a specific area. I’m also going to ask the mods to delete any posts that refer to a specific area, as this has nothing to do with a specific area.

    I’m trying to figure out what exactly a school district is mandated to supply/pay for for private schools, both for NY and NJ. Does anyone have a comprehensive source for this information?

    #1086605
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Usually the district pays for text books and busing and they are required to pay for special ed in their own public schools, They are only required to pay for special ed in private schools if the parents can prove the public schools are inadequte for their kids

    And Inadquete does not mean you dont want your kids in a mixed gender class with non-charedi kids talking about TV and pop music. It means stuff like the class size is wrong for your kid or they dont have the exact services your kid needs to help him learn better

    #1086606
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, source?

    #1086607
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I cant give my sources, however I do have very intricate on the issue of special ed. If you want the City or local municipality to pay for private school special ed , you have to sue them with a lawyer and hope you win (In the city this is a little easier than most suburbs) because in the City they use high priced lawyers to fight people on the Upper East Side and Upper West side of Manhattan who higher high priced lawyers for $75,000 a year special ed schools so you can usually win in Brooklyn if you hire a good lawyer however in the Suburbs its almost impossible to win

    #1086608
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ZD, source?

    almost anyone who works in special ed in any public school could verify that

    #1086609
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you can sue them, it means there’s room for determination that for some students, special ed in private schools is appropriate.

    It would be in the best interest of those students to have that determination made by people who have their best interest foremost in their minds.

    #1086610
    Mammele
    Participant

    ZD: your definition of inadequate is based on your interpretation. Of course it’s not clear-cut, and that’s one of the reasons the city or county can try to fight private special-Ed placement. For example if a kid speaks only Yiddish at home and the county doesn’t provide Yiddish services would you say such an education is appropriate for a child with very limited learning capabilities? I want your personal opinion, not just the legalese as you’ve come out very strongly against your co-religionists on this issue and it’s truly disheartening.

    Unfortunately even in the city it is very difficult to fight the board of Ed. because they have “unlimited” resources to appeal even when they do lose. So you’d need to pay exorbitant tuition and legal fees while your case snails through the court system. Yet at the end of the day — or very often school year — you don’t know whether you’ll get reimbursed. And they make you go through this fight EVERY SINGLE year.

    Many people moved to KJ just so their Down Syndrome child can get the education they need and deserve. We are dealing with a self centered teachers’ union pulling the strings, crazy beureacracy and at least a touch of anti-semitism even in NYC.

    On the other hand KJ seems to be doing very well with their public school district. And despite many naysayers around here, they do it all LEGALLY. So paradoxically we need to be more isolated (segregated?) and collectively smart to achieve fairness. And then we get backlash for doing just that. Anybody interested in starting a thread about the Monroe annexation issue?

    #1086611
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    Its very hard to prove that, And you have to go to an a beaurocrat who thinks religous schools are nonsense and when they refuse you have to convince a arbritor that private schools are better than public schools and again many of them do not belive in relgious schools and certainly do not believe in segregated schools (in the relgious sense)

    #1086612
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    According to the NY State Education Department website:

    State-funded programs and services include: Health Services, Homebound Instruction, Textbook Loan Program, Computer Software Loan Program, School Library Materials Loan Program, Transportation (students must reside within 15 miles of the nonpublic school), Special Education Services, Dual Enrollment Programs, and Mandated Services Reimbursement.

    So these are the things that are paid for. However, not everything is given to the school. For example, Special Education may be offered in the Public school system. The reasoning is that in the public school, they already have the necessary people on staff, and it won’t cost them much if another kid comes in. Private schools tend to have less need, and it would cost far more than it does in public school. Busing is another good example. They provide transportation, but it doesn’t have to be door-to-door service. They can require centralized bus-stops to cut down on the costs. This may mean some kids have to walk a bit to a bus-stop, and a parent may need to walk with them and supervise the bus-stop until the kids are picked up.

    #1086613
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Who pays the lawyers?

    #1086614
    bloggerman2
    Participant

    NPS mandated services from the website petition: transportation, textbooks, computer hardware and software, special education services, etc.

    link removed

    In regard to Special Ed that ZD DOESN’T know

    1)As a “special ed” parent, it was cheaper for district doing it in Frum school than spending the money in the Public School. My child wasn’t “bused” to KJ

    2) It’s cheaper for district to accept the fact that they may lose in a court appeal of Special Ed services and have to pay legal and other costs etc.

    3)After speaking with many respected health professionals, the standard that ERSCD Special Education uses is anyway a flawed one and should be corrected.

    #1086615
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yiddish is not the only foreign language spoken in NY and most of them have very very teachers. Why should a yiddish speaker get special treatment and not a Pashtun speaker.

    Other than Spanish and maybe Mandarin and a few others there are very few qualified teachers in any other language.

    #1086616
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    mammle my definition of inadequte is not MY definition, I know people very close to me who worked for the NYC board of ed in the special ed depaprtment and they know what will pass for inadequte and what will not. We have had many conversations over this topic

    #1086617
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    PBA

    If you win in an impartial hearing, the city pays the lawyers, If you lose you have to pay the lawyers, If you settle, the lawyers fees come of out of the settlement amount.

    #1086618
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Mods

    Please fix “if you will” to “if you win”

    Done. For future reference, you can edit your own posts within 25 minutes of posting.

    #1086619
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Its very hard to prove that, And you have to go to an a beaurocrat who thinks religous schools are nonsense and when they refuse you have to convince a arbritor that private schools are better than public schools and again many of them do not belive in relgious schools and certainly do not believe in segregated schools (in the relgious sense)

    That’s precisely why frum communities have voted in (legally and democratically) boards which understand the needs of the children from the community. There are a lot of issues which are subject to legitimate interpretation, and each side wants their interpretation to be implemented.

    #1086620
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Mammele, bloggerman2 – Please don’t mention specific areas, this is a legal question.

    DaMoshe – Thanks

    ZD: Why should a yiddish speaker get special treatment and not a Pashtun speaker.

    The school district would be required to provide services in Pashtun, or send the special ed child to a school that does.

    So what I’m getting from the discussion is that the real issue is special ed placement, which could legally go to either a public or private school.

    Question for y’all. Should a board (or where applicable, a fiscal monitor) not choose the least expensive option that is still considered minimally adequate (to save taxpayer costs?). Does minimally adequate need to be defined? Would a possible solution not be to create a public school special ed option in Pashtun?

    #1086621
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Every district is required to education all special ed children , not just frum ones

    #1086622
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just to make clear, I never said or intended to even imply that any election wasnt free or fair. As far as I know all the elections have been on the up and up and that we also live in a democracy where we have majority rules and protections for the minority (Jews usually need protections from being minorities in most places, otherwise laws could be passed to hurt jews like Blue Laws or needed laws to protect sabbath observance)

    #1086623
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    GAW,

    “I’m trying to figure out what exactly a school district is mandated to supply/pay for private schools”

    Just to clarify, the School District do not supply or pay for the schools. The provide these services to all students in a district.

    Busing is not a service to the school, it is providing a way for students to get to school.

    Special education is provided to students who need it. There are times when the provider most suited to service a specific child is not a public school. There are hundreds of private special education providers in NYC that are not part of the public school system who are paid by NYC Board of Education. Much of them for services that NYC BoE prefers to contract out. These are not costs of the private schools (the schools’ costs) that are paid for by the school board.

    I know for a fact that when children are placed in a Jewish special education school in East Ramapo, the amount paid for the students does not pay for any religious studies. The cost for the religious studies part is carved from what is billed. (And the cost is less than the public schools internal cost for providing the services). The religious education program is paid for by the parents and fundraising.

    In short, these are mandated services to CHILDREN in the district, regardless of which schools they chose to attend.

    #1086624
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    “And you have to go to an a beaurocrat who thinks religous schools are nonsense and when they refuse you have to convince a arbritor that private schools are better than public schools and again many of them do not belive in relgious schools and certainly do not believe in segregated schools (in the relgious sense)”

    The special education that is provided in separate schools for the most part are for children with severe disabilities. Including leaning, physical and emotional disabilities. I have dealt with a good number of excellent special education schools/programs run by orthodox Jews. A number run by chasidim. Not one of them was a segregated school. They all services both boys and girls. I have never seen a segregated program. The school in KJ service both Genders, I know several schools in Boro Park and Williamsburg that are run by Chasidim with beards and peyos and their schools have both boys and girls in the classes.

    Your assumption that the reason why Jewish Parents want other options than the public schools for their children is because they want gender segregation is a specious assumption without any basis in fact or reality.

    #1086625
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    You commented “The guy whose kids AP calculus class was cancelled , Their band was cancelled and the basketball team was cancelled and therefore has no extra curricular activity and will likely have great difficulty getting into an Ivy League school”

    When did getting into an Ivy league school become part of the mandated services to be provided?

    I have to pay the county college for my children’s AP courses, why can’t they do just the same? They do not pay regular tuition and there area even tutoring programs. There should be some investment by the parents as well.

    Besides, that is really not the reason why these kids will no

    #1086626
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Every district is required to education all special ed children , not just frum ones

    Nobody’s coming even close to saying otherwise.

    #1086627
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just to make clear, I never said or intended to even imply that any election wasnt free or fair.

    Right. I just mean that there’s some leeway for legitimate interpretation and prioritization for services, and the democratically elected board is charged with making those determinations.

    #1086628
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft – Let’s try to avoid mentioning specific areas.

    If is costs less for a special-ed child to be educated by a private school then:

    I understand why the teacher’s union (or pro-union board) would want to still educate in a public school, but why would someone impartially reviewing costs believe that is is more efficient to send to a public school?

    #1086629
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It doesnt cost less to educate a special needs child at a private school, It actually costs more because in the public school they intergrate them more.

    Sending kids to college is a expected result of a proper high school education and getting them into good colleges is also expect, just because some people do not value the education received at an Ivy League school doesnt mean its not worthy to try to get kids in

    #1086630
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i would be shocked to find that it costs less for a special ed child to be educated by a private school, unless you are talking about adding a child to a system that is already n place.

    I have been sitting thru countless meetings where parents (of all religions and cultures)are trying to get their children placed into private schools for any number of reasons and find professionals to fight their case. Sometimes it is in the childs best interest and sometimes it isnt. Sometimes it may be best for the child culturally, but that is not an obligation the state must cover. I don’t think language or religion are good enough reasons to make a state cover a childs placement if they can service them educationally.

    Nisht – when you said that it is cheaper (from the situations you spoke of), do you mean that the amount of tuition alocated by their district is less then we would actually need for their education, or do you mean that the amount they themselves spend per kid when servicing them is less?

    #1086631
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Right. I just mean that there’s some leeway for legitimate interpretation and prioritization for services, and the democratically elected board is charged with making those determinations.

    If and only if there is no deficiency in what the district is tasked, which is to provide an education. You can argue that there is the ability to use additional funds as desired, but not if the core charge (graduation rates, math/English scores) is not being met.

    For example, the law in NY requires busing as follows:

    Section 3635 of the Education Law requires all non-city districts to provide transportation for pupils enrolled in kindergarten through grades 8 who live more than two miles from the school they attend and for pupils enrolled in grades 9-12 who live more than three miles from the school they attend up to a distance of fifteen miles. (from nysed(dot)gov)

    If the district so chooses, they can provide additional busing. However, if test scores and graduation rates for any district are significantly below average, their first charge should be to raise those scores (by providing tutoring after school, for example) over and above providing additional busing.

    Thoughts?

    #1086632
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Sending kids to college is a expected result of a proper high school education

    I fully disagree. The expected result is that the children graduate knowing a minimum standard of education (think no child left behind).

    #1086633
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Let’s try to avoid mentioning specific areas.

    someone impartially reviewing costs

    Lol

    #1086634
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thoughts?

    Why are they below average? Who says throwing money at it will help? These are all issues a duly elected board has a duty and right to decide, without a “monitor”, who may or may not represent the views of the electorate, who can overrule legitimate decisions.

    #1086635
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Sending kids to college is a expected result of a proper high school education

    I fully disagree. The expected result is that the children graduate knowing a minimum standard of education (think no child left behind).

    although it’s enought to make you throw up – the state of illinois has now imposed standards in the k thru 8 with the focus on college readiness.

    I wish I was joking.

    #1086636
    Mammele
    Participant

    GAW: I’m sorry but I don’t know exactly what’s mandated. And I’ll continue to bring up locations because as far as I know the law to accommodate special Ed students is not exactly clear-cut. So it boils down sometimes to doing things only based on dry law or “mit gefeel”. And some school districts unfortunately try to skirt the law and give Jewish special Ed kids “bubkes”

    So in Williamsburg for example there is a Yiddish/Jewish special Ed class based in a public school, while East Ramapo did not want to provide such accomodation. I don’t have the time to look it up now, but there was an online column (by Aron Wieder of Monsey IIRC) on this topic which was very informative a year or two ago.

    As to your question of taking the cheapest option that’s minimally adequate, I could flip it and say the same for regular public education. If drama lessons for example, despite being helpful for self esteem — and it may even be a career option — are cost prohibitive, why should it not be cut?

    And ZD: I don’t think many students from East Ramapo’s public school system are planning to attend Ivy League colleges, for many reasons, so you’re not making a good argument there. What, for example is the graduation rate in East Ramapo public schools? I’d assume most public school kids there that go on to college would choose a community college. And I’m not a racist, it usually boils down to dollars and cents and it’s definitely a poor district.

    #1086637
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: Many states have open records acts, where anyone can view public budgets. Just because NYS is run by Tammany Hall doesn’t mean everywhere else is.

    🙂

    #1086638
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    NY state has a website for graduation rates for all high schools in the state, you can google it

    Ramapo High School has a 63% graduation rate in 2014

    Edward R Murrow A high School in Flatbush Brooklyn graduation rate is 81% (I dont know the name of the High School in Williamsburg or Boro Park, but Ive passed Murrow many times so I know that one and its in a jewish park of Brooklyn)

    Harvard if you can get into it does not make cost an issue, their endowment is large enough to pay for any student who cannot afford it (Its the only Ivy League School like that)

    Most colleges have some sort of financial planning so not everyone has to go to a community college, the City and State universities are fairly inexepensive and good

    #1086639
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Why are they below average? Who says throwing money at it will help?

    I fully agree. In fact, throwing money has been tried (Kansas City Kansas) and not worked. However, unless the board believes the problems are insurmountable (in which case they have failed and should be replaced), their priority should be to study why the children emerging from their district are significantly below average.

    Syag Lchochma: I didn’t know that. In that case, that would be the legal standard.

    Mammele – Thanks for being honest, I’ll try to address your points (but once again, let’s try to avoid names:)

    So it boils down sometimes to doing things only based on dry law.

    If that is all the law requires, then that is all that is needed to be provided.

    So in Williamsburg for example there is a Yiddish/Jewish special Ed class based in a public school, while East Ramapo did not want to provide such accommodation.

    My guess is that a public school setting (in any district) would not allow for religious schooling after/before hours, but that is pure speculation. I’d be interested in hearing specifics when you have a chance.

    As to your question of taking the cheapest option that’s minimally adequate, I could flip it and say the same for regular public education. If drama lessons for example, despite being helpful for self esteem — and it may even be a career option — are cost prohibitive, why should it not be cut?

    I agree fully and I think that drama, tuba or anything else should be cut in order to provide mandatory services (if they are mandatory).

    #1086640
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    “Ramapo High School has a 63% graduation rate in 2014

    Edward R Murrow A high School in Flatbush Brooklyn graduation rate is 81% (I dont know the name of the High School in Williamsburg or Boro Park, but Ive passed Murrow many times so I know that one and its in a jewish park of Brooklyn)”

    What is your point? Did you consider the demographics of the two schools? In ER well over 90% of the student body is Hispanic and Black who were not born in the U.S. There is a huge percentage who are ESL track. There is even a large number who have just arrived in the U.S. At 16+ years of age who show up to just a few classes and then don’t finish because they don’t know English and intend on finding jobs right away. The chancellor pointed this out, but the activists got upset because it wasn’t politically correct even though it was factual.

    That is really what he the greatest impact on graduation rates along with parent apathy.

    #1086641
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “e sort of financial planning so not everyone has to go to a community college, the City and State universities are fairly inexepensive and good”

    I guess you have not been reading about student loan crisis.

    #1086642
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    GAW,

    “Nisht – when you said that it is cheaper (from the situations you spoke of), do you mean that the amount of tuition alocated by their district is less then we would actually need for their education, or do you mean that the amount they themselves spend per kid when servicing them is less?”

    The school board pays less to the private school than it costs to provide the same services in the public school. It also costs the private school less for the same services, they don’t have all the union costs which would be crippling.

    The private school is not making money on this since their reimbursement is based on the CFR filed with SED. In addition the private school provides yeshiva classes as well, which are not paid by the ERCSD. Unfortunately for the school, the parents of the overwhelming majority parents do not have anywhere near the resources to pay for the costs of the Yeshiva part of the education. Which is not covered at all by the district. The school still provides for these children and has to beg for funds to remain a viable institution. No one is making money lay off these schools. But there are many people who lose sleep and are under constant stress to make sure that the school remains open for the children. Outing their personal health and resources at risk.

    #1086643
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft – FYI, you’re quoting Syag (and I think you meant to direct your point to him/her).

    Also, in all fairness to ZD, my understanding is city colleges are among the cheapest in the country, and even less than Yeshiva tuition.

    #1086644
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Student Loan crisis is from people who insist on dorming to out of state schools that cost $40-$50K a year and the jobs they get nowhere pay what they will get in a job

    SUNY or CUNY in state tution is about $6000 a year

    #1086645
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Frankly if the people in Ramapo were smart, they would send their kids to the public schools for the free secular education and then only need to pay for Limudei Kodeshm I mean seriously how mixed would a school in Monsey really be. Vouchers are not legal in NY but an almost all frum school would be possible in Monsey, it would lower Yeshiva tution for many

    #1086646
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    nisht – thanks for the info. Here the district may pay about $65,000 to a different district because that was the determined price of “tuitioning out” but they don’t actually spend that much per kid in house. They have so many more kids and staff tho, so it’s hard to know exactly. I think the outgoing payment is definitely more than they would have spent. The exception would be some of the really high needs kids, or the kids tuitioned to fancy private schools with huge price tags.

    (Our frum schools don’t have sped so I don’t know what it would cost. I do know that any sped program opening would need to start by adding a room to an existing school so even $650,000 wouldn’t cut it.)

    If you are talking about LD type kids who are generally serviced in the classroom but require a part time push-in teacher and therapists, that would be a lot cheaper but would probably never ever get approved for funding.

    #1086647
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    SYAG,

    The cost of providing the services for Special Ed is easily obtainable from the dust rictus financial statements and the financials differentiate between payments to other schools/ School districts and the cost of providing special education in their own schools.

    The costs comparison I was referring to is the difference between the costs of providing the services internally, not contracted out to the cost in the private school.

    #1086648
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Student Loan crisis is from people who insist on dorming to out of state schools that cost $40-$50K a year and the jobs they get nowhere pay what they will get in a job

    SUNY or CUNY in state tution is about $6000 a year”

    I thought you said that ERCSD has to get the kids into Ivy League schools.

    #1086649
    Mammele
    Participant

    GAW: It seems I was wrong and there is or was a small Jewish class in a Monsey public school but it’s being contested because supposedly the goal is to have kids mainstreamed. Even eating Kosher meals separately is considered smacking of segregation by some… I found the above in a Tablet Mag article titled “The Blame Game” which is very informative on this topic.

    I couldn’t find the article I thought I remembered which also mentioned Williamsburg. I may have read it offline and I’m not sure by whom. Sorry.

    I don’t know the details of the Willamsburg program, but it’s not a religious class per se so it’s during regular school hours. It’s most likely deemed cultural, hence the accommodations are possible.

    #1086650
    Mammele
    Participant

    I also find it oddly ironic that years ago towns surrounding Monsey/Spring Valley formed their own villages so as not to be together with minorities (and have better funded schools as these communities are richer) while the Orthodox Jews are blamed for the public school’s lack of funds; especially since many of us are not exactly well-off financially.

    #1086651
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Williamsburg class I belive is for Austistic kids and I belive Satmar provides the kosher meals.

    The kids in this class religion doesnt really matter as they are lower functioning (I am fairly certain I knew someone whose kid was in this class)

    #1086652
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    “The kids in this class religion doesnt really matter as they are lower functioning”

    That is a dad’s perspective? That religion really doesn’t matter because your child is lower functioning?

    And yet there are many agencies with residential programs that were started by parents becUse they were concerned about the religious perspective even if their child was lower or almost completely non functioning. I know of several such agencies.

    #1086653
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i wouldnt say a parent wont mind if their lower functioning child would be in a class where a different religion is discussed because he is lower functioning. But there are times when it doesn’t matter because religion is not brought up in any way due to the low function of the class. I know of parents in both positions.

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