April 3, 2018 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1502437Avi KParticipant
The rules of the CR state “5 – Please try to post in a language somewhat resembling English… If your comment is not written in normal English, it will not be approved.”
I have noticed that many posts are written half in Creole German. Is this normal English? Is there a tipping point where the post is considered Creole German and not English?April 3, 2018 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1502478MalachOfCholentParticipant
but you missed Leil Hasseder …..April 3, 2018 9:03 am at 9:03 am #1502486mentsch1Participant
Creole German is just another name for Yiddish
And since many rabbunim hold Yiddish is holy the mods have no choice
On the other hand your shayla would be appropriate concerning ladinoApril 3, 2018 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1502484american_yerushalmiParticipant
English itself is a creolized West Germanic language that originated from Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain around the mid 5th to 7th centuries AD by Anglo-Saxon settlers. Norman and French also influenced its development. Shakespeare incorporated many Latin and Ancient Greek words, as well as from other European languages.
The language you presumably prefer — modern Hebrew — although probably largely based on Lashon Hakodesh, is itself an amalgam of European languages, BTW including many Yiddish words, and of course plenty of Arabic. And today’s spoken Hebrew often seems to contain more English words than Hebrew. Scores of English words have becomes “Hebraized” (creolized?) and so, if you pronounce them with an Israeli accent, everyone considers them to be Hebrew words.
Bottom line: all languages today are creole versions of earlier languages. Having said that, many comments, and even published articles on the website could occasionally use some editing…..April 3, 2018 10:04 am at 10:04 am #1502496GadolhadorahParticipant
All joking aside, the entire purpose of the postings here is to communicate a point of agreement, disagreement or abatraction. Given the ease of using spellcheck and a thesaurus, there really isn’t an excuse to waste the time of CR readers with incoherent rants. Yes, some satire and sarcasm may go over the heads of some readers just as some of the pearls of wisdom from Halacha or an inyan from Chazal may be intelligible only to a few of our big CR talmeidei chachamim but that is my problem, not that of the poster.April 3, 2018 10:04 am at 10:04 am #1502497JosephParticipant
Creole Hebrew, which the Zionists call Ivrit, is much more objectionable as it is a corruption of Loshon Kodesh. And L”K should not be used as an everyday street language for speaking the most mundane and low forms of speech.April 3, 2018 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1502509Uncle BenParticipant
Joseph; What language do you think our forefathers used for mundane speech in the time of, say Bayis Rishon?April 3, 2018 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1502506GadolhadorahParticipant
And the millions of Israelis who speak grammatically correct Ivrit (including some gadolim who are resident in EY speak beautiful Ivrit in their daily lives) are engaged in “low” forms of speech while segments of the Chareidi population who are intelligible only to one another are morally superior?? I guess in “Joes world” that makes perfect sense.April 3, 2018 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1502510Uncle BenParticipant
What excuse do you have to subject CR readers to your incessant mindless rants?
editedApril 3, 2018 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1502519akupermaParticipant
In Britain, “normal” English is well defined as being the accent taught to the upper class. In America there are regional accidents, though mid-western (mid-Amerca) became standard as a result of the civil war (when someone from Illinois accepted the surrender from a Virginian). Of course, America has been very open to absorbing words from a variety of languages (and to a lesser extent, British English as well), including Yiddish. One can argue that whatever people are using is by definition “normal”. So normal English includes that spoken in Brooklyn.
Note that some countries (France and Israel come to mind) have government agencies defining what is “normal”, though it should be noted that real people tend to speak without regard to bureaucratic requirements as to what is normal. To most Americans, the idea of an official “normal” English is laughable.April 3, 2018 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1502530🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
GH – I’m often baffled by your simultaneous unconcealable hatred for frum Jews and their life styles’ and your disdain for putting down people’s beliefs and lifestyles. You can’t play both sides of the fence. If you want to exude nastiness toward frum people, don’t ask for better from others.April 3, 2018 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1502532🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Correction – ONE of your identities on that screen name…..April 4, 2018 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1502903Avram in MDParticipant
“I have noticed that many posts are written half in Creole German. Is this normal English?”
It is for many Jews!April 4, 2018 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1502910Avram in MDParticipant
” In America there are regional accidents, though mid-western (mid-Amerca) became standard as a result of the civil war (when someone from Illinois accepted the surrender from a Virginian)”
I don’t think this is quite accurate. Lincoln himself spoke with a distinctive Kentucky twang. I think the “American Standard” dialect developed conceptually more in the 20th century with suburbanization (middle class whites eschewing regional accents perceived to be associated with poor inner city areas, and favoring accents more similar to Anglo-Saxon residents of the interior Northeast and Midwest), and television and radio broadcasts that adopted the same. A possible Civil War connection may be the association of Southern accents with stereotypes of poverty and slowness, due to the extensive poverty in the South following the war. Regional accents in the Northeast were likely associated with poverty due to the high number of new immigrants in the early 20th Century.April 4, 2018 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1502923akupermaParticipant
There are also upper class regional accents. The key “division” was the civil war, which established that mid-western was the American “standard”. Television and movies led to increased standardization in spoken English. Ethnic and regional accents are not “wrong”, and one needs to note that English vocabulary constantly absorbs words from other languages (and seems to be more open than most languages to assimilating foreign words).
In discussing topics related to Yiddishkeit (“Judaisim”), words derived from Hebrew and Yiddish are more precise, and often replace the English word that is a nominal equivalent in the speech and writing of cultured (in Jewish culture) Jews. Words such as Ha-Shem (rather than “G-d”), Yuntuf (rather than “Festival” or “Holiday”), Sefer (rather than “book on Torah subject”), or “Shabbos” (rather than “Saturday” or “Jewish Sabbath”), are examples of words moving across linguistic barriers.April 4, 2018 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1503023Avi KParticipant
Avram, I doubt if they will pass standardized tests.
1. Yiddishkeit is not synonymous with Judaism. The former is an East European Jewish cultural package whereas the latter is a religion.
.2 2 “Yuntuf” is a corruption of a corruption. “Yom Tov” become “Yuntif”. You then made in “Yuntuf”.April 4, 2018 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1503034Reb EliezerParticipant
The Sefer Maasei Hashem says that Ho Lachmo Anyo is a lamentation for not being able to sacrifice the Korban Pesach in Babylon where they spoke aramaic.
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