December 9, 2019 9:42 am at 9:42 am #1809055HaimyParticipant
Is the OTD situation in E.Y. much worse than here in the US? It seems to come up in the news much more often. How is this sad phenomenon different or similar between Israel & the US & can any lessons be learned for this?December 9, 2019 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1809342lowerourtuition11210Participant
I am not sure how this can be measured.December 9, 2019 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1809375lakewhutParticipant
One isn’t necessarily worse but teenagers in Israel are more likely to hang out in clubs whereas in America, kids smoke up in someone’s backyard. There’s less middle of the road in Israel than in the US. Some Israeli rebels look to pick fights and steal things. It’s pretty hard to paint OTD in the US with the same brush. There are slight differences between Flatbush, Boro Park, Monsey, and Lakewood, just to name a few. I never heard of a reject Yeshiva for people who grew up religious in Israel. It seems that there are more ways to save kids at risk in the US than in Israel. However, there’s been a huge teshuva movement in Israel among people who grew up not being religious at all. Ironically, American Jews who become BTs usually change when they go to Israel.December 9, 2019 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1809415Reb EliezerParticipant
I akewhut, I think because the kedusha is greater, so is the yetzer hara. If someoneis able to over come it. he wil shteig, elevate himself otherwise, fall.December 9, 2019 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1809417The little I knowParticipant
Outside of referring to the phenomena of OTD, there are precious few efforts at assessing the situation, nor has the focus been to study the issue from a sociological perspective. I have yet to read any generalizations about the subject, whether in Israel or in America that have any empirical value. We know it is happening, as we witness it continually. There is certainly a place for research to be done. Meanwhile, the focus of the Klal has been to create strategies to rescue these kids, whether by programs, professionals, askanim, etc., and there is much praise to heap on those engaged in these efforts. With all the tendencies to create groups, every such kid is an individual, with their own experience and issues. The one size fits all does not work, and every successful effort has its failures.
Nice question. I am more curious how one can answer than what that answer is.December 9, 2019 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1809459lakewhutParticipant
I haveo add that the spiritual ceiling in E”Y is much higher than anywhere in Chu”L and IY”H we’ll all be living there.December 22, 2019 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1812851hujuParticipant
Fewer Israeli bochurim go OTD around Chanukah. The jelly donuts are better in Israel.December 22, 2019 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1812862Avi KParticipant
Lakewhut, on the contrary, a very large percentage of Israelis are “traditional” which often means kiddush and hamotzi on Shabbat followed by TV/going to a soccer game, keeping kosher and even taharat hamishpacha. As for measuring OTD, in the RZ sector, in particular on settlements, many young people stay in the community and play by the rules in public while doing what they want in private. Do they count as OTDs?December 22, 2019 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1812870GadolhadorahParticipant
The statistical baselines are different in the U.S. and EY as to the percentage of the yiddeshe tzibur that is considered “frum” or “chareidi” and as others have noted, there are different metrics as to what actions/combination of actions would be deemed “going OTD” by the majority of members of the community. Thus,there is no concesnus as to what numbers goi into either the numerator or denomiator so hard to define comparable or relative statistics.December 23, 2019 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1813383RR44Participant
The system in etetz Yisroel is very different in many ways.
First of all many children become otd much much younger – often 12 or 13. [they genenrally carry more responsibility at a younger age, and are also far more chutzpadik.]
Also in e”y everything is more open, more well known, politics are discussed more etc…
many BT’s or their children who start out believing that every frum person is perfect end up disenchanted in e”y.
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