What Is Your Ideal Endgame In Israel?

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  • This topic has 129 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by mdd.
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  • #937938

    Complete moral, social, financial and security failure of the medine. Abandonment of the medine by its citizens and by Jews throughout the world who are tired of facing danger because of the incompetence of the medine and its misleaders.

    Dismantlement of the present medine by the UN, with US, EU and Russian assistance.

    A Jewish autonomous region for shomrei mitzvos within an Arab state. Freedom of access to all parts of EY (except Har HaBayis) as tourists for anyone from anywhere.

    Bnei Torah throughout the world welcoming and assisting largely chiloni refugees from the medine.

    A return to Torah, followed very quickly by Moshiach and the establishment of a real “Jewish state” in all of Eretz Yisroel.

    #937939
    SpiderJerusalem
    Participant

    TheBearIsBack: How about if we compromise and give you “shomrei mitzvos” your own state in an Arab autonomous region and see how long you last? It’s a win-win! You don’t have to pray for the death of Jews and we don’t have to put up with you parasites!

    #937940
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SpiderJerusalem: The Bear holds of the typical Rav Yoel Satmar Shitta that the Medinah is the Devil Hees-self.

    That being said, I (and SpiderJerusalem) don’t understand (and if Bear would answer that would be great) why Satmar has not left the Medina and gone to Ever HaYarden or Suria, both which have the Mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and are not controlled by the hated Zionists.

    #937941

    “pray for the death of Jews”?!

    Tell me, SJ, what else do we do? Make matzos with Zionist blood?

    #937942
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Satmars who live in the land between The Mediterreanean and The Jordan River what passport do they hold?

    #937943
    SpiderJerusalem
    Participant

    Kanoi: The subject is Eretz Yisroel, not Metitza b’Peh. Please stay on topic.

    Haredim who believe they’re the only real Jews and hold by the Satmar rebbe would logically have no problem praying for the death of whom they consider “false Jews”. We don’t hold by his garbage. Look where they sit now, among leftists and Arabs.

    #937944
    mdd
    Member

    Kanoi, what goes around comes around! NK, Satmar and Brisk make not-true accusations against the Zionists, so they get it back.

    #937945
    ah talmid
    Participant

    Gavraatwork: becaue the zionists actions have made the Arab countries inhospitable for Jews.

    #937946
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavraatwork: becaue the zionists actions have made the Arab countries inhospitable for Jews.

    Doubt you. Did you try? Neturai Karta did.

    #937947
    mdd
    Member

    SJ, we have to be careful not to insult Talmidei Chachomim.

    #937948
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Satmars who live in the land between The Mediterreanean and The Jordan River what passport do they hold?

    I’ve always assumed they either held Hungarian (or other outside country) passports or did not travel outside the country.

    #937949
    SpiderJerusalem
    Participant

    mdd, nobody is hurling insults.

    #937950
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I’ve always assumed they either held Hungarian (or other outside country) passports or did not travel outside the country

    When the Rebbe travels to Lod Airport and shows his US passport, They stamp it with something

    #937951
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    When the Rebbe travels to Lod Airport and shows his US passport, They stamp it with something

    That he entered Lod in Eretz Yisroel. He admits that such a city exists, and they can even use Lashon HaKodesh as a stamp!

    #937952
    Nathan A
    Member

    I thought the topic was Israel’s endgame, not how how the Rebbe travels!

    We have accepted democracy as the norm, we don’t realize how malfunctioning it is. I remember a quote ‘Democracy is the worst governing system… after all the other ones!’

    First we have to come to terms that our lives will take a different twist in Hashkafa so who says the’ll be dati, chareidi, knesset,…?

    #937953
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.”

    Churchill

    ???? ??? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????

    #937954

    GAW:

    “I (and SpiderJerusalem) don’t understand (and if Bear would answer that would be great) why Satmar has not left the Medina and gone to Ever HaYarden or Suria, both which have the Mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and are not controlled by the hated Zionists.”

    Why should they leave? Eretz Yisroel belongs to the Jews; the Zionists do not have an exclusive claim to it.

    SJ:

    “The subject is Eretz Yisroel, not Metitza b’Peh.”

    Huh?

    “Haredim who believe they’re the only real Jews”

    When did anybody say anything remotely like that?! Why do you continue to put words in our mouths, then bash us for what we supposedly hold?

    We disagree with your hashkafos the same way that you disagree with ours. Why does this make you hate us so?

    “would logically have no problem praying for the death of whom they consider “false Jews”.”

    Aha. So first you decide what it is that we think of others, then based on those completely made up assumptions you decide that we pray for everyone else to drop dead.

    If you think that’s a reasonable argument, there’s really nothing for me to say.

    “We don’t hold by his garbage.”

    Who’s being intolerant now? Do I go around calling R’ Kook’s shita garbage? (How dare you think you’re the only real Jews and pray for our deaths!)

    Oh, and

    “I expect the Haredim to fight Moshiach”

    +

    “We don’t hold by his garbage”

    ?

    “nobody is hurling insults”

    mdd:

    “Kanoi, what goes around comes around! NK, Satmar and Brisk make not-true accusations against the Zionists, so they get it back.”

    Seriously? Somebody on the other side lies, so you can say whatever you want?

    In the words of Lemony Snicket, “If you fight fire with fire, the whole world will burn down”.

    #937955
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Why should they leave? Eretz Yisroel belongs to the Jews; the Zionists do not have an exclusive claim to it.

    No group of Yidden have an “exclusive” claim. One group is trying to remove/destroy the other. If they feel so strongly that the group should be removed (as per the post by the Bear), they can leave themselves.

    #937956
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The Kanoi Next Door: It is unfortunate that we have gotten to this point, but the Charaidi ideal “end game” seems to be the removal of all non-charaidim. First from their towns (whom they place pressure to either act like a charaidi or leave, see Beitar and now RBS), and then from the country. As I said elsewhere:

    Had the Charaidim left everyone else alone, we would not be having this discussion. It is easy to say “you leave us alone, but we will still control you”. Chazal called that Midas Sedom.

    #937957
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its one thing to be against the government and not participate, Its quite another to be against the government and actively participate in its demise

    #937958
    mdd
    Member

    Kanoi, I am not doing that. I’m just saying they can’t be so upset about it. There is such a thing as “middah keneged middah”.

    #937959

    GAW:

    “One group is trying to remove/destroy the other.”

    True. The chillonim are trying to make/force fundamental changes to Chareidi society, to the point where they would arguably not be chareidim anymore.

    But in all seriousness, why do you people keep making such hateful, unfounded accusations? The Chareidim are not trying to “destroy” anybody, just like we do not pray for anybody’s death. This hateful, ridiculous stereotyping has got to stop. We’re human, just like you are; please treat us as such.

    “It is unfortunate that we have gotten to this point, but the Charaidi ideal “end game” seems to be the removal of all non-charaidim.”

    Again with this impressive mind-reading. Interesting how the D”L seem to know the Chareidim’s thought (or should I say plots?) better than we do.

    “First from their towns (whom they place pressure to either act like a charaidi or leave, see Beitar and now RBS), and then from the country.”

    That is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. Yes, there are extremists who seek to remove what they feel is inappropriate from their neighborhoods, but they only do this because they don’t want there to be negative influences on their neighbors and their children. You don’t (and you won’t) see them trying to get people to leave Tel Aviv.

    The Chareidim are not plotting to take over the world, I promise.

    mdd:

    So now that SJ and GAW have made not-true accusations against the Chareidim, does that rob you of your right to protest if I falsely accuse the entire D”L community of something?

    #937961
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Kanoi: I wish that you are right and I am wrong. I really do. Facts on the ground show otherwise (with neighborhoods in Yerushalaim turning over one by one, with Charaidim moving in and others moving out. “Kanoim” attacking in RBS. Busses are no longer allowed to show Tznius pictures of women).

    I’m really sorry that it is this way. It didn’t have to be.

    #937963

    GAW:

    “(with neighborhoods in Yerushalaim turning over one by one, with Charaidim moving in and others moving out. “Kanoim” attacking in RBS. Busses are no longer allowed to show Tznius pictures of women).”

    I repeat, imposing Chareidi standards in a Chareidi neighborhood is very different from wanting to “destroy” everybody else.

    SJ:

    Nobody is buying the innocent act anymore. We know enough about the D”L to know they don’t respect the rest of klal yisroel and generally consider us evil, murderous savages who need to be forcibly “civilized” by the enlightened D”L.

    #937964

    In case y’all were wondering, that last piece was in response to a comment by SJ which is no longer in existence.

    #937966
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I repeat, imposing Chareidi standards in a Chareidi neighborhood is very different from wanting to “destroy” everybody else.

    1: Not if it affects those “passing through” a public area, such as Kikar Shabbos in Geulah.

    2: What makes an area a “Charaidi neighborhood”? Is everyone else blacklisted out? Must you be in kollel to live there? (This might be the biggest problem, as they “decide” it is a charaidi neighborhood while the current occupants are still living there.)

    3: What about the effects on non-Charaidim, such as not allowing secular marriage, destroying supermarkets that are open on Shabbos, etc. If you want “live and let live”, you have to “let live”.

    #937968
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    P.S. I have no problem with the “Mea Shearim” signs asking people to dress Tznius. Besides for it being a good thing, it is only right to respect the (certainly) Charaidi area and the residents’ wishes. It is what happens when someone doesn’t comply that is (for lack of a better term) disgraceful and (IMHO) Anti-Torah. Other places provide sweaters specifically for this purpose.

    #937969

    I am not advocating imposing Chareidi standards in Chareidi neighborhoods (perhaps we can discuss the pros and cons of that on another thread), only saying that it cannot be reasonably compared to “the removal of all non-charaidim… from the country”.

    #937970
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I am not advocating imposing Chareidi standards in Chareidi neighborhoods (perhaps we can discuss the pros and cons of that on another thread), only saying that it cannot be reasonably compared to “the removal of all non-charaidim… from the country”.

    As these standards are put into place, those who already live there and do not want to follow the standards are forced to leave (via violence and/or threats thereof). As more neighborhoods are “taken over”…

    As I said, we have seen it happen.

    Also reread “Bear”‘s statement.

    #937971

    You cannot equate Chareidi takeover of certain neighborhoods, fueled by natural growth of that particular demographic, to attempting to “remove/destroy” anybody and everybody who does not agree with the Chareidi worldview. Like I said before, nobody is (and nobody will be) attempting to kick the chillonim out of Tel Aviv.

    “Also reread “Bear”‘s statement.”

    Bear was espousing the Satmar/Eidah HaChareidis view that the existence of the secular State of Israel is inherently a chillul Hashem. Therefore, it would be preferable for the state not to exist. However, neither Satmar nor the Eidah supports actively trying to “destroy” the state. Only Neturi Karta does that.

    #937972
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Bear was espousing the Satmar/Eidah HaChareidis view that the existence of the secular State of Israel is inherently a chillul Hashem. Therefore, it would be preferable for the state not to exist. However, neither Satmar nor the Eidah supports actively trying to “destroy” the state. Only Neturi Karta does that.

    I hope the mods let this question though, Its not meant to be attack alhough it might be taken as such

    Geting involved with elections is a major disruptment especially from non citizens. We do not tolerate it here. So why should the Israelis tolerate it. Certainly there were many reports that some election events were going to happend to prevent voting while you might not think they were all true, With all the reports some were likely true.

    #937973
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    cannot equate Chareidi takeover of certain neighborhoods, fueled by natural growth of that particular demographic, to attempting to “remove/destroy” anybody and everybody who does not agree with the Chareidi worldview.

    How many is “certain”? Looking at it your way, the seculars have even more reason to stop the Charaidim, as it is (in your view) a war for limited resources, which will only get worse as the demographic advantage moves towards the Charaidi side (due to nothing other than a fantasic birthrate, which anyone secular would call irresponsible). I would not be so sure that in 25 years (if CV Moshich is not here) that Beni Brak will not include parts of Tel Aviv. Even if it isn’t Tel Aviv, how about the rest of Yerushalaim? Haifa? etc.

    #937974
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Before you scream “Paraoh”, note that Charaidim ARE enforcing their will on the rest of society & forcing the rest of society to pay for their largess. Once again, this would have never been an issue if not for the funding (and even now, it still isn’t, which is why the plan as put out IS a win for the Charaidim).

    #937975

    Zdad:

    Urging people not to vote can hardly be called attempting to destroy the state.

    GAW:

    Are you suggesting a “war” to limit the growth of particular demographic? Because I wouldn’t just call that “Paraoh”, I’d call that “Nazi”. We have a right to have children; sorry if it inconveniences you.

    And like it or hate, you cannot call this natural growth an attempt to destroy the State of Israel and remove all non-Chareidim from the land. That is just ridiculous.

    #937976

    I am not Satmar.

    I am post-Gush Katif kanoi, simply because I see that the medine is a failed experiment. My present views are in line with true NK – Reb Amram Bloy ZYA. He also saw things the way they were – he saw he could buy and sell the Arabs out from under them and get as much land as he wanted for bnei Torah – until the tzioinim got in the way.

    EY is now the most dangerous place in the world begu”r for Jews.

    However, I see one ironic way out of the situation:

    Full draft for charedim – charedim then undermine the tzioinim the true Torah way, by bringing the people they serve alongside closer to Yiddishkeit.

    Then, the ineffectual UTJ and the well-meaning, but corrupt Shas will also be done with, and some new charedi leader, not a sellout like Amselem or Lipman but a bona fide charedi leader like Rav Grossman, starts a new party that becomes the huge upset 2 elections from now.

    Shabbos will become law, the gerus question will be settled once and for all, and EY will become lehavdil like Turkey under Erdogan – do what you want, but the country is a Torah country.

    This means 500% VAT on treyf meat outside of historical notzri areas and for all purchasers who are not notzrim, 1000% VAT on imported treyf wine (and 250% for kosher for all I care if it makes sense that EY should protect its own wine industry), toll for use of the roads on Shabbos, three years in jail for Anat Hoffman and company etc, etc. It also means cleaning up present issues in the frum world that I believe arose because of the need for us to “vehivdilanu min hatoim.”

    This is a more positive scenario than the strict NK one, but I believe the world will impose the NK scenario, or one state, one man, one vote, on the medine.

    #937977

    This thread makes my heart hurt, so I figured I have to throw my opinion in here. At some point, The chilonim and the charedim will make peace. the chilonim will stop expecting the charedim to disappear, and they will realize the value of people beingan eved hashem. The charedim will somehow become more accepting of people who are different, wether they be a different chassidish sect, or sephardi, or even some sort of zionist who wants to be part of Klal Yisroel while being respectful of the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel.

    Once the fighting stops, moshiach will come. No bloodshed, no midana crashing, the Arab threat will fade away to nothing, because it is just a manifestation of our sinas chinom and the chillul hashem of having a state without god. Once all parts on Klal Yisroel do tshuva, there will be no need to have the Arabs threatening us, and Geula will naturally flower. That is the end game, the middle game, how we effect the reconciliation, well that is a whole other thread.

    #937978
    mdd
    Member

    GAW, there is a chiyuv to force others to follow the mitzvos(not chumros) if possible even though it might not be up your American alley.

    #937979
    akuperma
    Participant

    The zionists will try to draft the Hareidim, and they will fail. They will look like fools when confronted with mass resistance, and when their attempts at coercion are denounced for violating Israeli and international human rights laws. If the climate continues more than a few months, the end will be when an alliance of Hareidim, Arabs and Socialists come to power and end the draft (not unrealistic, Hareidi politicians are already talking about, many non-Hareidim also oppose conscription, and all three favor the “welfare state”), and possibly end the war which the Hareidim can end (we want to live in peace and do mitsvos whereas the Dati Leumi focus on territory is a recipe for perpetual warfare).

    So all will end well, but not immediately, and not the way the hiloni ruling class expects.

    #937980
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    akuperma: you may be correct about the rest of it, but it is way wishful thinking that the chareidim or anyone can end the war with the arabs except by dismantling the state and agreeing to live in the dar al islam.

    Notwithstanding media coverage to the contrary, the reasons for the conflict have nothing to do with settlements or with land captured in the six day war. The proof of this is the six day war, ????.

    #937981
    ah talmid
    Participant

    popa: you aren’t disagreeing with akuperrma even on that point. Akuperma has posted that the chareidim would agree to live under Arab rule in Eretz Yisroel.

    #937982
    mdd
    Member

    Ah talmid, the Arabs won’t pay the Chareidim bills to stay in kollel — so there is no point in all these fantasies of alliance with the Arabs to avoid conscription.

    #937983
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well mdd, you are incorrect about that, if we assume that not being forced into a shmad army is better even when you also aren’t paid.

    #937984
    akuperma
    Participant

    The Arabs will never make territorial concessions. They will insist that Eretz Yisrael be art of an Arab Islamic state (even if it is an autonomous Hebrew speaking entity with its own army). They will insist that Arab Muslims are considered first class citizens (which they certainly aren’t). Our insistence that Arab Muslim be a tolerate minority in places they have lived in for centuries is the cause of the war (a war that, BTW, the gedolim opposed, and had the zionists listened to the gedolim, the war could have been avoided).

    Hareidim demand that we can control our own affairs. We don’t want to impose our laws on the goyim. Thus Hareidim are in a better position to negotiate. We might be willing to agree to ban abortion, ban public same-gender you know what, require wearing decent clothes in public, prohibit ribis, etc., as the price of peace. Indeed, if the Arabs agreed to let Jews live anywhere in the Land of Israel, I suspect even many of the settlers might agree.But as long as we insist on “sovereign” status (which, BTW, means no one, even G-d, is above the state – meaning the whole idea of soverignity is apikoresdik), there is no hope for peace – meaning the eventual end will be like all other nations, which sooner later, means being something found only in history books.

    #937985
    Health
    Participant

    PBA -“akuperma: you may be correct about the rest of it, but it is way wishful thinking that the chareidim or anyone can end the war with the arabs except by dismantling the state and agreeing to live in the dar al islam.”

    Exactly! The State should be given to Turkey. The “Frum” settlers will stay, not the so-called “Frum” like Bayit Hayehudi. The Lapidniks will move to Uganda. Turkey won’t take the Jews in their army – I doubt they take Jews now. And the US can now give some of 3 Billion to support the Jewish community living in EY.

    (Btw, the Israelis and others screaming “share the burden”, have no problem Schnorring from the US, but are appalled that people who refuse to go to the IDF are taking social programs. Hypocrisy at it’s finest. What have they done for the US. Who needs another so-called democracy in the Middle East?) If some Freye can’t move out, eg. too old, they can have some of this money. I agree with Deri. The main thing right now is to break this coalition. Lapid will go the same way as his Dad and Bennett will be dragged along.

    #937986
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So your ideal endgame is to give the country to Turkey. Fascinating.

    #937987
    charliehall
    Participant

    Turkey has has mandatory military service since early in Ottoman times. Until 1908, Jews were exempted but had to pay a very large tax. Starting with the Young Turks revolution of 1908, all male citizens have been liable for military service, and there is no conscientious objection exemption. (That is the law; I’m not sure about is how strictly the mandatory military service is enforced.)

    #937988
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There more I hear about it, the more I am convienced “Share the Burden” is not about the draft, but rather welfare burdens.

    The Non-Charedim dont wont the Charedim in the Army, the army doesnt want them, they dont want to pay them the welfare benefits especially since many of them are struggling as well and can barely afford to support their own families.

    By forcing the Chilonim to leave you will have a welfare state with no producers only takers. And the takers are already very poor and starvation is faily common. You cant have a Zebulin / Yissochar arrangement without Zebulin

    #937989
    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -“By forcing the Chilonim to leave you will have a welfare state with no producers only takers. And the takers are already very poor and starvation is faily common. You cant have a Zebulin / Yissochar arrangement without Zebulin”

    I posted that the 3 Billion that the US gives them should now go to the Charedim. And the rest will be made up from the Frum Jews that live in the Galut (like the Israelis say).

    Until this election, I was never upset that my income taxes went to Israel. After this so-called election where the Shmad isn’t just on “sharing the burden” for them to make the Charedim join the army; -you’re correct that the Shmad is to destroy Frum Torah life and any financial support they receive from the State.

    To all the Zionists here in the CR: You all have been screaming Chillul Hashem and what Not against the Charedim in Israel for taking and Not giving -for Not Sharing the Burden – what do you say about the Israelis not sharing in my burden of my taxes?

    I don’t think the Frum communities in the US have yet to realize what they are truly doing/going to do to the Charedim. When they wake up, hopefully they will start screaming at our politicians not to give our hard earned money that our Gov. takes from us in taxes to Israel – after all they don’t Share our Burden in paying taxes!

    #937991
    mdd
    Member

    Israel gets from the US paltry 3 billion a year in military aid and the Americans don’t mind. The Israelis do not go to Washington to shnorr and then refuse doing favors and mevaze the donors. See the difference?

    #937992
    ah talmid
    Participant

    Paltry? The Chareidim get much much less than that. Something like a paltry hundred dollars or so a *month* from the government.

    And $3 Bil a year ain’t so paltry.

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